RXS Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I'll be honest here, I'm pretty shocked and appalled that so many people seem to carry the Bible around and read it like stereo instructions for life. Even if something doesn't make any sense to them, they'll just buy it and go on condemning people at their leisure. This is at the heart of this issue. It feels good to have moral superiority over other people, it serves the ego. When people attempt to argue from a religious standpoint, they don't realize that they cannot be argued with, it is not possible. 7828[/snapback] Outrageous!.. Are you telling me that because I believe in God and try to live by high standards that I am in the wrong...that I am serving my ego? Let me tell you something honey, you are dead wrong. Don't start bashing religion because it does not fit your shallow morals or doesn't make sense to you. Don't start bashing people because they believe in religion or try to follow the teachings found in the bible. You are just as guilty of being stubborn and/or uneducated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 RXS-I think you're taking it a bit too literally. This is my perception of 'some' people, only some. So in answer to your question, no, you are not in the wrong because of your religion. True, my statement was a bit provacative, but I'm just trying to illustrate my frustration with people who don't question anything (their upbringing, what they're told). How do you argue with that? It is true that you cannot argue with religious dogma, it was not meant to be argued with. That frustrates me, especially when people think it can be argued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandre Orion Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Well, things certainly got hot in here again... First of all, let me apologize for my aggression last night. We drank a bottle of Jack (yes, we have that here in France too) and I sort of let loose on some old resentments. On the other hand, I do not feel that was more or less insulting than some of the remarks made beforehand, concerning my morality in living my life as well as I can. As well as I am permitted, as the case may be. To return to the question as to whether I meant physical love or general love, I meant "love." If any two individuals are just knocking the boots because it feels good, then we are not talking about marriage anymore. I know no one who marrys everyone that he or she shags. We were talking about marriages, and that implies that the two people in question are in love. Or, at least it should. Let's consider what is "normal" now. If you (general you) think that homosexuality is abnormal, you are wrong. If it were abnormal, it would not be so present in the species (humans are, after all, an animal species, religious beliefs notwithstanding). Moreover, all the body parts fit together under normal circumstances. Furthermore, homosexuality is not considered deviant in all cultures, in fact, in some it is revered. I can bear witness personally to the fact that it is not a choice, having myself struggled with the issue for most of my youth. Ergo, homosexuality is a very normal part of the broader concept of human sexuality. Marriage is a legal contract, and as the Church is no longer a significant influence in judicial matters, the social/legal aspect is more important than the moral value. Those who wish to brandish the Bible against anything, gay marriage or otherwise, should maybe be careful that a few verses before or after the verse(s) they quote do not diabolize their own conduct. I know very few people who stay chaste until married. Unless that has been edited out of the Bible, it is still a sin..... Is it less of a sin than two men loving each other ? Think about it. Alexandre Orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXS Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I know very few people who stay chaste until married. Unless that has been edited out of the Bible, it is still a sin..... Is it less of a sin than two men loving each other ? Think about it. Alexandre Orion 7865[/snapback] Sin is Sin in the eyes of God. Are there different levels of sin? I would suspect so, and so does society. Stealing candy from a store is a sin and so is murder...yet they carry vastly different punishments (examples chosen are to illustrate extreme ends of the spectrum). For me, premarital sex and homosexuality are on an equal plane and fit somewhere in between these two examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[FF5]Knix Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Gen forget what I said about trading Alexandre for the Brie, et al. If he drinks Jack Daniels there is hope for him yet. (Tied on quite a doozy myself Friday night thanks to Mr. Daniels ). I never said I have a problem with homesexuality. I HAVE said that I wish it on no one. However to take it to the extreme (we are a NOLF forum after all), if I had to choose one of my sons to be an murderer or a homosexual law abiding citizen...well come on for me that is no choice at all. The question I was raising is that the people who have problems with other people not "accepting" another's homosexuality is in many cases via misguided reasoning. In many cases the people I see who do not approve of homosexuality do not do so because they are... 1) Ignorant 2) Bigoted 3) a self-loathing homosexual themselves 4) a religious zealot I know many people who have contemplated the issue in order to form an opinion. I am not well versed in the bible to be able to use it in this discussion. I am torn on this issue, as I find it very hard to seperate the act from the person doing the act. For example. I just came back from Italy, and my cousin (we call each other cousin's as we have been friends since we were little) who is from Norway came down to visit while me and my family were there. This guy is one of the nicest guy's in god's creation. He showed great attention to us, and especially looking after our kids who sapped the last ounce of strength from my wife and I. Showing them great love and patience. Now he happens to be gay. Does this lessen my appreciation for him as a person? No of course not. But I must admit I feel bad for him, as he will never get to appreciate the things I have been able to in my life. Wife, children from his own making with a wife, as well as the special bond I truley feels lies beetween woman and man in love, that I just can't reconcile as being possible in a same-sex relationship. Does this make me one of the four types of people I list above? I wish my cousin, as well as every single respectcable person on this planet no matter if they be gay, straight, bi-sexual, or transgendered, only happyness in their lives. This does not keep me from truely feeling sorry for them for their preference, whether it came about via nature or nurture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Does this make me one of the four types of people I list above? 7907[/snapback] No, it doesn't make you one of the four types of people you listed at all. As a matter of fact, I'm totally blown away because I really feel like you understand the issue at a very deep level. Obviously, coming out as gay in our society is not exactly easy, or even safe. Many people who find themselves attracted to their same sex are deeply conflicted to say the least! Oftentimes, they are just as religious, and have the same expectations of marriage and family as everyone else. To some people, not many I suspect, the realization that they are gay is a time to rejoice and a time to breathe easier, but for most gay people, I would imagine that it is almost like a death. All of the sudden, they aren't the person they thought they were, they won't live the life they always thought they would...Will they have children? Will they be the victim of hatred or violence? Will they be ostracized from their families forever? I too, would not wish it on anyone either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belladonna Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 It is entirely possible to disapprove of homosexuality while at the same time treating the homosexual with respect and consideration. There are many things people do that I do not approve of, but you can't judge a person based on one solitary thing about them. You have to look at other facets of them. For example, I'd be totally turned off by a straight snobbish person whereas a polite gay person would be someone I'd prefer to talk to. I don't consider myself to be ignorant, bigoted, a self-loathing homosexual or a religious zealot. Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions, which this topic makes very clear. How you develop those opinions does not have to have been through a negative manner. Whether you approve or disapprove of homosexuality doesn't mean you're a 'bad' person, even though those with opposite beliefs might think you are simply for not agreeing with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I'm willing to accept the notion that some of us on the 'pro' side might make it seem like one is a bad person if they don't approve of homosexuality. This is a complex issue, but people don't seem to see it that way. It's either right or wrong in the minds of most people. Personally, I'm well aware that I'm not verbalizing statements that are meant to 'reach' people. I'm attempting to 'argue' from a logical standpoint. People tend to see things from a generalized perspective. Gay people often dwell on negative events that have happened to them because of their sexuality, they see Evangelical preachers with tremendous amounts of power and influence spewing ugliness and hatred from their pulpits toward them. This is human, we as humans tend to remember the negative events and words spoken to or about us much more vividly. So to respond to the notion of whether or not someone is a bad person for disapproving of homosexuality...Does it make you a bad person if you feel conflicted about the subject? Of course not...but if people come into the discussion with their minds made up already, clashes inevitably occur. Frankly, if our discussions benefit anyone, it's the undecided and perhaps 'conflicted' readers that view the posts. I am guilty of sub-consciously equating the average Joe with an opinion to the most zealous, hateful archetypes who are against my position on matters, but so are most of the rest of us at times. I would describe it as a proactive defense mechanism, or in other words (overkill). In the end, these are people's lives we are talking about. There's a lot at stake for gay people, and personally, I see nothing at all at stake for straight people. Arguments inevitably ensue, guns blazing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandre Orion Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Nice response, Knix, but you can still trade me off for the brie if you like as I'm probably never coming back to America. Yeah, Genesis and I took quite a toll from Mr. Daniels the other night... still sort of hung-over from it. Come take a drink with us sometime... Dijon is not terribly gay. I would like to conclude this natural/unnatural argument. There is enough evidence that being gay is not a choice. Who would 'choose' to be the object of such intolerance and bigotry ? No one. It is not a sickness to be cured either. It is in the nature of the individual, probably from birth onward, and should be accepted as such. I do not understand how anyone can consider themself in a position to approve or disapprove of someone else's nature. For instance, if my cat shreds something, a carpet or a houseplant by sharpening his claws on it, can I really be angry about that and punish the cat in some way because he acts on an instinct that is strictly natural ? No. I should however provide him with something(s) on which he can act naturally without being a nuisance. I will be angry with him when he 'chooses' to do what he needs to do with my things all in having his own. Now, bring this back to homosexuals. I am gay, but I certainly do not approve of all 'gay' behaviour. There are some homosexuals, many in fact, that are difficult to digest. They want to force people to accept homosexuality in such a ferocious way that they act inappropriately in any public domain. This is not OK, and it lends credibility to arguments against gay rights. I think that it would be difficult for anyone to recognize me as a homosexual. I do not wear womens' clothes or make-up, I am content to be a man and do not refer to my male friends as 'girlfriend' or 'b***h', and furthermore, I avoid homosexuals who engage in this sort of idiocy. I have not seen the inside of a gay bar for over a year. In matters of approval or disapproval, it is not necessarily a question of nature. The way one behaves in society is the choice. Sexual orientation is not. By the way, although not really a gamer, I do enjoy discussions like this one for they are quite a lot of fun, and also very enlightening. I think we all can learn a lot from one another. Respectfully, Alexandre Orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacko Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 In the end, these are people's lives we are talking about. There's a lot at stake for gay people, and personally, I see nothing at all at stake for straight people. Arguments inevitably ensue, guns blazing... 7910[/snapback] Good point, good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{GD}Independent Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 "So you sometimes do immoral things, but at the same time you know you shouldn't..." Of COURSE I sometimes do immoral things! I'm a human, I'm a sinner, and I thank God that Jesus died to pay for my sins. But I don't stand on a soapbox and crow about my immoral actions and demand approval of them from you and everyone else. No, actually, I feel BAD about the bad things I do, just as I feel GOOD about the good things I do. It's the feeling bad part that helps me (and many others) limit the bad things that we do. I think if the homosexual community ever succeeds in convincing the rest of the world to freely accept their chosen lifestyle (note, I say chosen lifestyle, not chosen orientation), they'll still struggle with guilt, depression, etc. because they'll know deep down that that lifestyle is wrong. My heart goes out to them, it really does (yeah, I know you'll dismiss that as BS). I would hate to be in their position. But forcing acceptance of their lifestyle on the rest of us through judicial fiat ('cause it'll never happen via a vote of the populous ) is not going to solve their problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 GD...A religious perspective is not the only perspective. By approaching the argument from a logical and/or scientific perspective, I must accept the notion that I could be entirely incorrect in the end, can you do the same? You cannot prove that homosexuality violates the rights of others or harms the person because it is not so. You must realize that some people couldn't possibly care less about what the Bible says about the subject. It is not fair to legislate from a religious perspective in our government (or any government), and you all know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 My heart goes out to them, it really does (yeah, I know you'll dismiss that as BS). No, that ain't no BS at all! Why would we do such a thing? We know what you mean. Now, two or three more things. 1 ) You seem to talk mainly about gay people who claim to be homosexual. The kind of gay people you wouldn't miss out in the streets. They're a minority. Most of them fight for their rights in a more legal way, rather than organizing techno marchings that may shock their opponents even more. 2 ) The fight for gay civil marriage has not only been fought by homosexuals, but also by straight people who believe this is a faire cause. Deputies who voted the PACS* here in France were not all gay, even if it's not really a civil marriage yet. 3 ) I don't see how allowing gay civil marriage would be a way of "forcing acceptance". You wouldn't be forced to live with them. After all, prostitution, under certain conditions, is legal almost everywhere worldwide because people consider that it's private life. This might be forcing acceptance, because the girls are right there, out in the streets, for everyone to see. So, what's worse? Why would a country with high moral standards accept this and not that? 4 ) When you say I would hate to be in their position. I couldn't agree more. If I had to deal with people who showed me signs of compassion while, at the same time, comparing me to a criminal, or to a goat-f**ker, yeah then I'd hate to be in their position, too. *Civil Solidarity Pact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandre Orion Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I think if the homosexual community ever succeeds in convincing the rest of the world to freely accept their chosen lifestyle (note, I say chosen lifestyle, not chosen orientation), they'll still struggle with guilt, depression, etc. because they'll know deep down that that lifestyle is wrong. 8001[/snapback] Absurdity could be considered wrong, whomsoever engages in it. Many homosexuals are reactionary, as are many of the Christian Right. Neither side is so terribly righteous when one surveys the situation objectively. Certainly if one side or the other is actively trying to "convince" the other that bull-headed, in-your-face style flaunting of a mutual hatred that is bred only in both groups' stupid ideology, then the guilt, depression, etc. would be firmly warranted. No one should be forced to witness things that make them uneasy. For that matter, it would probably make my mother uneasy to make her watch me flaunting a vulgar drama, quasi-sexual, at the limit of pornographic with either gender. Most people would be uncomfortable to witness this, ranging from disgusted to bored. This is the sort of scene that takes place privately, at my home or that of my boyfriend. For that matter, watching any couple gyrating in a fit of passion in public (restaurants, cinemas, cafés or even parked cars) is really rather crude. This goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. This is a choice of behaviour, not lifestyle. I am gay. My lifestyle consists of preparing courses for my students, teaching them, being understanding of their needs and concerns--both at school and in life--taking advantage of my holiday time to rest, spend time with my friends, see a movie, read, write, entertain...... in short, all the perverse things that everyone does in life. As I stated earlier, I do not approve of all the behaviours of everyone that shares my sexuality. I will admit however, to being somewhat revolted by those who believe that my lifestyle is wrong and that I have no right to live in spiritual, moral, sexual and yes, civilly sanctioned love with whomsoever that relation occurs. Respectfully, Alexandre Orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacko Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Well. I just wanted to say that I don't want anyone's compassion Some understanding would be super-duper but alas, it's human nature to have strong opinions about things even about things we have nothing to do with and aren't harmed by in any way. However! It does provoke me when gay people are judged solely because they are gay. If I stated that all Christians, or all Democrats, or all vegetarians, are sinful and horrible people, the Christians, Democrats and vegetarians would no doubt be all over me with the argument that it's propostrous to generalize such a huge demographic like that. And of course they would be absolutely right. But the one thing I expect is equal rights and equal opportunities. In this particular debate that still means the legal protection and economic benefits that a wife and a husband get, but are still out of reach for gay people in many countries. In Norway we have partnerships and hey, we rate the number 1 country in the world to live in still on the UN HDI ranking. Our society is not falling to pieces yet and so far even those darned polygamists have kept quiet. But I suppose it's just quiet before the storm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 all come to holland you can marry here, and all ppl should be able to to that anywhere and with anyone htey want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[FF5]Knix Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 For that matter, watching any couple gyrating in a fit of passion in public (restaurants, cinemas, cafés or even parked cars) is really rather crude. This goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. This is a choice of behaviour, not lifestyle. I Agree! There should be a law against PDA! (Public Display of Affection). Now I am no prude, but if I am sitting on my train going to work trying to read the sports page, and a couple next to me are swapping spit.....well I don't dig that. GET A ROOM! Now as this topic of "gay marrige" now has fallen under the category of "Beating a dead horse to death." May I suggest a couple of spinoffs topics??? 1) Are men/women who enter prison having been in hetero-sexual relationships their whole lives, then enter into homosexual ones once incarcerated, always gay, or do so out of the neccesity of their new environment? 2) Why do straight men dig (lipstick) lesbians in porn? annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd GO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 1) Are men/women who enter prison having been in hetero-sexual relationships their whole lives, then enter into homosexual ones once incarcerated, always gay, or do so out of the neccesity of their new environment? 2) Why do straight men dig (lipstick) lesbians in porn? annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd GO! 8014[/snapback] 1.) I have actually seen documentaries/read papers on the subject of homosexuality in prisons. From the information I have seen across the board, most prisoners who engage in homosexual activities in prison 'out of necessity' as you put it are not homosexual and upon release from prison they immediately return to a heterosexual lifestyle. It has been found that the same incidence of 'static' as opposed to 'transitory' homosexuality exists in prison as the rest of society (anywhere from 3-10%). Here is an interesting (although not totally comprehensive article)... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_sex 2.) I would theorize that straight men like lipstick lesbians in porn because a. they are attracted to feminine (straight) looking females and b. they can retain the fantasy of joining the two or more women in their sexual activity. Men know that bisexuality among attractive women is somewhat celebrated in many respects and I believe that they assume that female porn stars that engage in lesbian activities are predominantly heterosexual (which is probably true in general). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TNT] Sonic Goo Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 1) Doesn't really happen here. 2) I don't know about anyone else, but I don't even like watching the men in heterosexual porn. They get in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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