Gay marriage

[Spacko]

Since when is the guy who equalled beastiality to homosexuality the poster boy for tolerance? Give me a break. Anyway, I believe the discussion "is homosexuality okay or not okay?" will not get us anywhere so I'll try to move back to gay marriage.

 

Isn't marriage a religious institution? To the best of my knowledge it is. Surely freedom of religion is nothing but pretty words if politics can and will force that religion into actions that oppose some of its most basic rules? I think marriage is and should remain a religious union between man and woman. Obviously there's a conflict of interest here when gay Christians feel left out... But in the end, I think most gay people have that feeling of being very different so deeply rooted in them that they will understand why there is a different but largely equivalent option available for them. It benefits everyone, in my opinion.

[RXS]

Gen,

 

Looks like a quote to me, because his statement is set off in quotes (albeit a hypothetical what if)...

 

the Bible would say "Kill your wife if she looks at other men"...

 

Now that I have re read his post, I think I see what you are getting at. Thanks Gen.

[Coty]

Since when is the guy who equalled beastiality to homosexuality the poster boy for tolerance? I consider homosexuality worst than having sex with an animal, not equal.

 

Is homosexuality "OK" with me? My answer is NO. It's not ok with me. Which is why I don't think it should be legalized. Legalization of homosexuality is accepting it into society. I do not accept it. If you want to humiliate yourself enough to let another man hump you in the privacy of your own home, I will tolerate it. But if you want me to put my arm around you and tell you its ok, not unless scientist discover a gene in human DNA that proves people can be born gay.

[Coty]

You are absolutely right, Coty. But when you say that changing the law is opening the door to all possibilities... don't exagerate. After all, you just mentioned a change in ... God's law. Did He open the door to all possibilities too? And not all changes do bring more freedom, remember. See the other thread about the 1st amendment, for example.

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By Paul saying "A husband of one wife," it would appear to me that he limited it to one man and one woman.

 

God has a right to change his law, because he is God.

 

Man, on the other hand, can't change God's law, but man's law. The Constitution of the United States is man's law, based on the foundation of God's law. People who believe in the New Testament believe that it is Divinely inspired by God.

[Spacko]

Since when is the guy who equalled beastiality to homosexuality the poster boy for tolerance? I consider homosexuality worst than having sex with an animal, not equal.

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Right, thanks. That's what I was getting at.

 

By the way... If they can prove that you can be born gay, you will turn right around and accept homosexuality? That's what it's all about for you?

[Coty]

You are against gay marriages, because the thought of two men having sex makes you sick? lol...thats probably the most stupid thing I have ever heard. As if they need to be married to have sex...lol. You guys are intolerant, that's all. I bet you would hate your son if he would turn out to be gay...

That's so S T U B B O R N

What if the Bible would say "Kill your wife if she looks at other men"...would you do it?

I hope not...

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If I had a son, and he turned out to be gay, I would still love him, but I would hate the sin.

 

 

[Coty]

Right, thanks. That's what I was getting at.

 

By the way... If they can prove that you can be born gay, you will turn right around and accept homosexuality? That's what it's all about for you?

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If it proved to be true, it would conflict with my religious beliefs. I don't think I would totally accept it, but I would probably be more tolerant.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

I don't think the religious aspect is very relevant. This is about civil marriage, not religious marriage. So religion only plays a part insofar as it's supposed to have any influence on lawmaking, as in the seperation of church and state.

 

This issue is all about rights. Once it's established that sexual orientation is something you should not discriminate upon, you can only refuse someone on qualitative issues. (Like, for example, women can apply for every kind of work and can only be refused long as they don't meet the requirements or if there are better candidates, not on the basis of gender.)

 

So the question is: can gay people form a stable family? How will it affect the child? Most objections seem to come from the response from society. Society is intolerant of gay people, so gay people should not be allowed to have children. This is where the comparison to racial segregation and mixed marriages comes into play. People were intolerant of that too (remember the kids going to school with a police escort?) - but that didn't mean they should be denied their rights. Society should respect these rights, because they should respect the law.

 

As for a man having sex with a man being humiliating... is it humiliating for a woman to have sex with a man? I think some elaboration could be very enlightening.

 

I don't think the idea of 'icky' is a very good basis to discriminate upon. After all, fat people, old people, anorexic people, ugly people, etc. etc. etc. wouldn't be allowed to marry as well. There's always someone who finds something icky.

 

As for the biological determination of sexual preferences, I've found a summary of some research here.

[Genesis]

By Paul saying "A husband of one wife," it would appear to me that he limited it to one man and one woman.

God has a right to change his law, because he is God.

Man, on the other hand, can't change God's law, but man's law. The Constitution of the United States is man's law, based on the foundation of God's law. People who believe in the New Testament believe that it is Divinely inspired by God.

Our modern democracies were based upon SOME christian principles, but they do change in order to stick to mentalities, contrary to the Bible. Yes, the American law forbid sodomy and made it a crime (if I remember well, it's still illegal in some states, uh?) because it was forbidden in the Bible. Since that, things have changed a bit, people are more aware that being gay is not a crime. One of my friends told me that in his hometown (south IL) in the early 80's, it would have been better to be a serial killer than to be gay.

 

Well, what I wanted to say is: if you mix human laws with religious beliefs, why make it on some points only? Why forget that Jesus said "He who shall take a sword, shall die by the sword" and support acts of war? (I ain't got no English Bible here, sorry if the translation's not perfect) You are talking about the foundation of God's law there. Alright. The message of Jesus is a message of love. He said that people who have sex without being married, (not illegal in the US) people who cheat on their wife / husband, (not illegal in the US) AND men who have sex with other men (illegal in the US: why?) would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

BUT this is not a death penalty. The essence of his message is to SAVE, not to condemn. So, christians who truly believe that homosexuals are commiting a "crime" should try to make them change and forgive them. Jesus forgave prostitutes and other people who did awful things because they heard and loved his message. So, who are men to condemn other people while the son of God didn't?

 

Sorry Goo, I derived on Religion again. But seing how people take and leave what they want in the Bible... makes me sick.

[Spacko]

We're talking about civil marriage? I didn't know that... I thought we were talking about religious marriage. Of course gay people should be allowed to form a legal union too. As long as we're talking two consenting adult humans it's not my business to deny anyone to get married.

[Coty]

Ok, Blacks were born that way. Women were born that way. As far as I know, gays were not born gay. There is a difference. Alcoholics became alcoholics because they choose to drink. It was a decision. If alcoholics never drank again, they would still be an alcoholic, but have abstained from drinking. If it was proved that gay people were born gay, then they would fall into the category of blacks and women But it has to be proved first. If they are homosexuals because they choose to be homosexuals, or rather, committing homosexual acts, then it is a sin. Heterosexuals can commit the sin of adultery and fornication the same as a homosexual. But according to the Bible, a homosexual act is a sin. God still loves the homosexual person, but hates the sin.

 

 

 

I personally don't think a child should be brought up in a homosexual family. A child mimics his parents, so I think it will create more homosexuals. I personally don't consider homosexual parents as a "normal, stable" environment for a child.

[Coty]

When I was in the 10 'th grade, I was in the band in high school. There were these two 5 'th graders that had homosexual tendencies. I mean, they played with dolls together as recess. I mean they acted like homosexuals, girls... Everyone snickered at them because they knew they were gay. Now how can this be? I have often wondered about this through life if they were born this way or not. Or what happened in their small little life to cause them to be this way.

[RXS]

Ok, Blacks were born that way. Women were born that way. As far as I know, gays were not born gay. There is a difference. Alcoholics became alcoholics because they choose to drink. It was a decision. If alcoholics never drank again, they would still be an alcoholic, but have abstained from drinking. If it was proved that gay people were born gay, then they would fall into the category of blacks and women But it has to be proved first. If they are homosexuals because they choose to be homosexuals, or rather, committing homosexual acts, then it is a sin. Heterosexuals can commit the sin of adultery and fornication the same as a homosexual. But according to the Bible, a homosexual act is a sin. God still loves the homosexual person, but hates the sin.

 

 

Building on what Coty said above...

 

If God is against homosexuality (there are several scriptures that support this statement), why would he allow someone to be born homosexual? If born homosexual, you would be behind the eight ball right from the start which would mean that God is an unjust God and that he likes some of his children more than others. This doesn't sound true to me - God doesn't like sin, yet would force someone a sinner? My personal beliefs are that homosexuality is a choice, not something that some are forced to endure by God.

[Coty]

...My personal beliefs are that homosexuality is a choice, not something that some are forced to endure.

 

And this is my belief too. I don't think God would make some of us be born gay, but God makes us all with different personalities. And that homosexuality is a choice WE make.

[StarMan Deluxe!]

Just a few observations. First off,people who have a problem with homosexuality

usually have a problem with their own sex life.The problem is they don't have a sex life.So they tend to focus on what others around them are doing.Second,It seems like the more someone has a problem with homosexuality,the more likely they are to want to "take it where the sun don't shine" themselves.They Hate themselves for this and they are usually in such strong stages of denial that they tend to form very negitive opinions about homosexuality,all the while convincing themselves that they are not gay.Third,most people who quote the bible like to pick and choose what "rules" to follow.they leave out the parts of the bible that would effect their lifestyles directly.They fear GOD to such a extent,that they want others to have the same beliefs as they do.Fourth,if a kid gos to school and is teased because of his parents lifestyle,is that the parents fault for adopting a child or is it societys fault for raising our kids to hate?These are NOT put downs at all.they are simply observations in human behavior.There are a few contradictions here but these are contradictions in your (human) behavior.Sometimes the truth is more painful then any putdown imaginable........i could be wrong.

[daybreak]

Starman is quite correct in discussing one's sexual orientation leading to anger and self-hatred. In a certain percentage of homosexual individuals, instead of coming to terms with their homosexual tendencies, they repress their desires-which may manifest as hatred towards other homosexuals. In a similar fashion, individuals with gender identity disorder may seek overly masculine or feminine jobs/lifestyles in order to repress the notion that they feel that they were born the wrong gender (men who feel like women inside may join the military/women who feel like men inside may become a housewife). The same thing can happen to gay people. They may get married, have children, and come to terms with their homosexuality at a later date, which is not fair to their significant others or their children...

 

From what I understand, there are a few different views regarding what 'causes' homosexuality. The first of which could be a pre-natal cause like an imbalance in hormones, the second theory revolves around genetics, the third theory is that homosexuality is learned 'before age two'. I find it hilarious that people think it's a choice...this being the case, then let me ask those people who have decided that homosexuality is a choice...Did you choose to be straight?, or more to the point, do you want to have sexual relations with members of your own sex but you 'choose' not to because of your religious beliefs???

 

Let's clear up another stereotype...the vast majority of gay people are not like the fab five on Queer Eye For The Straight Guy, nor are the vast majority of gay women overtly masculine. These are the people who stick out like a sore thumb-they may be proud of their sexual orientations and choose not to hide it from the world. The vast majority of gay people are just like everyone else, men do not necessarily have feminine mannerisms and women do not necessarily ride motorcycles.

 

Lastly, homosexuality and heterosexuality are seldom concrete. Alfred Kinsey found that most people fall in the middle of the scale regarding their sexual orientation, it is also notable that individuals tend to be dynamic (meaning that they may date members of the same sex at one time in their life and revert back to heterosexuality at another time. He found that few people are either totally straight or totally gay.

 

Keep in mind that Western religions like Christianity are dogmatic in nature (and cannot be argued with) and offer no logical explanation as to 'why' homosexuality is wrong (did you know the the Bible does not say that lesbianism is a sin?-although references to lesbianism can be found in brand new versions of the Bible). So let's keep in mind that humans not only use the Bible for their own self-interest (it was used to justify slavery in the Civil War as well as the opposition to interracial marriage just a few decades ago). The Bible has also gone over several revisions in the last few centuries, including only the books that stayed relatively consistent with the original story and omitting books like The Gospel Of St. Thomas for stating that one does not have to go to church).

[Coty]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is turning out to be some of the biggest hogwash I've ever heard of! So now if we don't agree with you, there must be something wrong with us, or our religion?!?

 

I don't need to defend myself or my religion. I don't accept homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle. Thats all there is to it. I believe it is a voluntary choice you make. I don't have to change the way I think because you want to make your lifestyle the norm. You can't prove that this thing is caused at birth. You seem to not even be able to control it. And you want others to accept it. Sorry, not gonna happen, not with me. So there must be something wrong with me huh?

 

naaa...

[Spacko]

Hehe, surely some people are in such a denial of their own orientation that they express hate of it - but I would think that's a pretty small percentage.

 

I believe I was born gay and I believe that straight people are NOT simply repressing their homosexual tendencies but were in fact born heterosexual. That said it's not impossible that being gay can also be a choice, but I still don't understand WHY anyone would choose that. It's being different, feeling different, it's harder to find a partner, you expose yourself to a ton of prejudice and even hate. It's not glamorous or particularly fun and any attention one gets from it, will usually be more negative than positive. So I still don't understand why you think more likely that it's chosen, than that you're born gay?

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

It seems some people have missed this link.

 

(see also here, here, here, here)

 

Like most behaviours, there doesn't seem to be a single cause for homosexuality, the discussion about nature and nurture is still ongoing. Most likely it's a combination of several physical (genetical) and environmental factors. Whatever the cause(s), it is normal, natural behaviour (see also the first 'here' link).

[Coty]

First off,people who have a problem with homosexuality

usually have a problem with their own sex life.The problem is they don't have a sex life.So they tend to focus on what others around them are doing.

 

I'm not focusing on what others are doing around me. I was simply answering a question (the topic) with my opinion. Homosexuality is not ok with me.

 

Second,It seems like the more someone has a problem with homosexuality,the more likely they are to want to "take it where the sun don't shine" themselves.They Hate themselves for this and they are usually in such strong stages of denial that they tend to form very negitive opinions about homosexuality,all the while convincing themselves that they are not gay.

 

I am not gay and have never had a desire for my own sex.

 

Third,most people who quote the bible like to pick and choose what "rules" to follow.they leave out the parts of the bible that would effect their lifestyles directly.

 

I did not quote the Bible. If I had, I would have given you chapter and verse. I merely told you what the Bible said about homosexuality and where I thought the law changed from Polygamy to one man-one woman. It was not my desire to preach to you. But because, from the link that was given, Preachers were marrying gays. I pointed out that this was going against what the Bible says in the first place. If you like, I can give you chapter and verse. Also you may want to read about Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis, namely, why these two cities were destroyed.

 

Fourth,if a kid gos to school and is teased because of his parents lifestyle,is that the parents fault for adopting a child or is it societys fault for raising our kids to hate?

 

Kids will be kids. It's not the child's fault

[Genesis]

Ok, Blacks were born that way. Women were born that way. As far as I know, gays were not born gay. There is a difference. Alcoholics became alcoholics because they choose to drink. It was a decision. If alcoholics never drank again, they would still be an alcoholic, but have abstained from drinking. If it was proved that gay people were born gay, then they would fall into the category of blacks and women But it has to be proved first. If they are homosexuals because they choose to be homosexuals, or rather, committing homosexual acts, then it is a sin. Heterosexuals can commit the sin of adultery and fornication the same as a homosexual. But according to the Bible, a homosexual act is a sin. God still loves the homosexual person, but hates the sin.

 

 

What about people who, when they discover their homosexuality, suffer from it but can't feel attracted by a person of the opposite gender anyway? Many homosexuals don't feel very confortable with the fact of being gay, and would like to live a "normal" life, but just can't. We know that some people are more likely to become alcoholic than others, for example, but if these people never start drinking - because they just don't like it, for example - they will never become alcoholic. On the other hand, you don't become gay because one day you wish to try having sex with a person of the same gender as yours. You know you are gay, and some people know it a long time before they'll have sex with anyone.

 

Being gay is not really a choice, at least for most of the gay people I know. They never told themselves "oh, maybe it's better to have sex with another man", tried it, and saw it was true. Something has always made them prefer men to women, that's it. And what about people who are gay, and who believe in God's law(s), should they be Christian or Muslim? Alcoholics can stop drinking, on their own or with some help, but gay people, even if it is a torture for them, cannot decide to become straight. I never heard anyone say "Hi, I'm John Doe, I'm a former gay"...

 

P.S.: Everything I said above also applies to most of the lesbians I know, but since people in this discussion tend to focus on male homosexuality because it is "sick", I focused on that too.

[Coty]

Since homosexuality is an "abomination unto the Lord" in the Old Testament, it's doesn't just affect Christians. It's also affects Jews and Muslims. So there is more than just Christianity involved here.

 

Nobody said you couldn't do it in the privacy of your own home, but "Should it be legalized?" Though it is a sin as far as some religions are concerned, it is not a "legal" sin as of yet in this State.

 

I cannot give you an answer for your situation because I am not gay, or ever had feelings for the same sex. It's plain that the Bible, "Old Testament and New," says homosexuality is a sin. Having feelings for the same sex, and going to bed with them are two different things. Abstinence is practiced among a good many Christians, also including Monks and Nuns from other religions like Catholics.

 

When we remove the barriers of religious beliefs, and make homosexuality legal, as in marriage, we MUST also include polygamy. There is no other way around it. They will demand their rights to marry just like gays are doing. And this opens up another "can of worms" sort of speak...

[Spacko]

When we remove the barriers of religious beliefs, and make homosexuality legal, as in marriage, we MUST also include polygamy. There is no other way around it. They will demand their rights to marry just like gays are doing. And this opens up another "can of worms" sort of speak...

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"Marry just like gays are doing"? Heck the only people without the right to marry ARE the gays and when they do, that right won't be taken away from straight people. But just to kick down that open door: Clearly marrying one, and marrying two people, are two very different things.

 

I do have one challenge: Put religion aside. Be as religious as you please but pointing to the bible and saying "it's a sin and the bible says so - so there!" is just the biggest debate killer ever. Put aside the nausea and the "moral issues" and come down to earth. To found the debate about gay marriage on what goes on the wedding night is really putting the cart in front the horse. After all it's the ceremony itself we're trying to discuss.

 

What precisely is damaged or destroyed if gay people get to marry? Who suffers? And please don't say the children, because that will straighten itself out (no pun intended) in no time. Young people today consider homosexuality something harmless and relatively normal. What are the potential dangers of allowing gay marriage? I find this debate in dire lack of reasonable and solid arguments for why gay people should be robbed of the civil right to marry.

[StarMan Deluxe!]

I was not trying to imply that you are gay coty.They were simply observations in general.And i'm not saying that every single person who has a problem with it is trying to hide something.Or that every single guy who isn't getting laid focuses on what other people are doing.i'm not defending my lifestyle here.I am not gay.What i cant understand is,why would anyone have a problem with love?Putting laws into place that resricts love.Who the hell are we to say that two people cant get married because it makes some of us sick?Well,if it makes you sick,then puke all over yourself,but don't let it stop two people from expressing their feelings for eachother.Like others have said,if these were hot lesbian porno chicks trying to get married,we would be all for it.

 

I have met many gay people in my life.And My conclusion is that basically,for the most part,they are simply more evolved.They lack what I like to call "MMTBS".That stands for "Male Macho Testosterone BullS@#t".And its this MMTBS that made me stop accosiating with a lot of my strait friends.i'm to old to be getting into bar fights and other dumb stuff that MMTBS brings on.I don't need it.Now again,i'm not saying that every strait guy has MMTBS.

 

And as far as kids go,kids will be kids to a extent.There are thoughts and behaviors that we as a society plant into their tiny undeveloped brains.If a kid tears another kid apart because he has two fathers,where did that kid get the idea that its "strange" or "different" to have two fathers?So i don't buy that one personally.And i don't see how having two fathers or 2 mothers or one father and a goat will have any effect on the choices they make in the future.If anything,kids rebel against their parents.There is not any evidence to support that theory.

 

And about religion.I'm not putting down your religion but my own feelings are that we have caused enough pain and suffering in the world "in the name of GOD"

[RXS]

Spacko...I'm not sure if I can address your question the way you would like, but I will give it a shot. First let us have some definition of terms here. I see four important terms which we ought to understand from a common ground. Homosexual:the tendecy to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex. Marriage:the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband and wife in a consensual and contracted relationship recognized by law. Natural:based on an inherent sense of right and wrong. Law:binding custom or practice by a community. Now the argument.

Homosexual marriage is against the law for the following reasons:

1. Homosexual marriage is not a union between man and woman since marriage does not and cannot define homosexuality.

2. What is inherently right and wrong? The majority of the existing societies shun homosexual union and as such inherently wrong.

3. Lest it become a custom among cultures, it is not binding.

Homosexual union is therefore inherently wrong, not binding and is not and cannot be contracted in marriage.

Martin Heidegger's concept of dasein can apply to this concept of homosexual union. A thing (esse) attains its essence when it is used according to its purpose. marriage's purpose and ultimate essence is not living together as man and wife but it is procreation. All the other aspects of marriage are just appendages and effect of the union.

If marriage were to be contracted between two individuals who cannot procreate, they are living on the periphery of the essence of marriage and thus not achieving their nature and their dasein.

 

Here are a few reasons angainst homosexual marriage:

 

"Homosexual coupling undermines its participants' health, has the highest rate of domestic violence, shortens life, and is a poor environment in which to raise children."

 

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet7.html

 

As you probably know, most of the homosexual "couples" would like to adopt a child(or more). But they are a real danger for a child, not to mention the trauma a child would suffer especially when they discern who their "parents" really are.

Also, some studies, revealed that a child with a homosexual parent is far more likely to become a homosexual than those with normal parents. That's a horrific thing.

 

Quote from the page in the link above:

 

"The largest study, (30) and the only one based on a random sample, estimated that less than half of a percent of Americans have had a homosexual parent. Those who did were more likely to:

 

report having had sex with a parent,

experience homosexuality as their first sexual encounter,

be sexually molested,

become homosexual or bisexual, and

report dissatisfaction with their childhood.

 

The various studies, (31) added together, suggest that the children of homosexuals are at least 3 times more apt to become homosexual than children raised by the traditionally married. "