Surak Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 STFU Surak. Try fixing the UN first. Atleast the UN doesnt have guantanamo bay style prisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathValleyGirl Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 yeah and they are not needed either cause all those swimmers should just stay, right??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXS Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Atleast the UN doesnt have guantanamo bay style prisons. Yeah, at least. Ummmm....do they have any prisons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Being an immigrant to the USA I know this for sure. I was given the opportunity to make a new life here full of opportunity and freedoms I did not have back home. I am behind Knix defending his country 100% like it or not George Bush is the elected president by the majority of the people in the United States of America. It is an office that is worthy of repsect. In some countries if you talked about their leaders like I've read in this tread you would be placed in jail or even worse. It is the liberties of the USA that allows the opinions in this thread. I will not ban anyone for defending the leader of their country. You are all entitled to your opinions but you have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Right, I'm not saying you are all wrong, but I think you need to look further than the tip of your own nose (this isn't easy I know) and accept that for some (not for you or me but for many real life people), this is not a matter of theory, rules and abstract concepts but a matter of life and death for innocent civilians. [...] [..] To ensure that they are not chasing small time crooks and bearded innocents with Palestine scarves (although personally I doubt they feel they have time to do that just for kicks), how about making a law which decides any evidence provided by these 'terrorism taps' can only be used in connection with terrorism charges? Seems a good solution to me. As a future journalist, Spacko, you should be aware of the importance of the division of powers. If I'm not wrong there the whole trouble is not about catching a bank robber instead of a terrorist by tapping a phone but the way this was done. There is a way of doing this "right" in a republic, and the wrong way is the president and his core government crew ordering it. Not even the US is such a great country that you could ignore such a huge democratic breach. On the other hand, if I'd tell you that 0.001% is the probability of a nuclear power plant blowing up within a year killing millions, you'd tell me: no problem there. But if the probability of catching a terrorist tapping a phone is 0.001% you'd go: woohooo good idea. Of course I agree with Goo: The end doesn't justify the means. Apart from that, Bush's behavior hurt the US reputation in the world badly, taking good arguments against dictatorships out of the hands of the democratic world. STFU Surak. Try fixing the UN first. Oh, we had this before. Why not fix your own government first? There is 10 times more corruption and other problems in the US government then there are in the UN, and the UN is bigger and consists of many not too nice people. Fix the DeLays of your own government (<-- I feel so clever now), THEN it's OK to criticise the UN. Let's at least agree that wherever there are politicians there are crooks. It is the liberties of the USA that allows the opinions in this thread. The liberties of the USA and those of 210 other countries. Why not compare the US among other free, democratic countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 The liberties of the USA and those of 210 other countries. Why not compare the US among other free, democratic countries? I wasn't making a comparision just seems the thread is criticize the USA so like I said in reference to the linking the forum rules post previously I'm not going to ban someone for defending his country and it's leader is all. I have observed though (the USA members) that they haven't ripped on the leaders of the countries of the people posting in this thread. I imagine this "domestic spying" goes on in alot of countries in the world also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacko Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 As a future journalist, Spacko, you should be aware of the importance of the division of powers. If I'm not wrong there the whole trouble is not about catching a bank robber instead of a terrorist by tapping a phone but the way this was done. There is a way of doing this "right" in a republic, and the wrong way is the president and his core government crew ordering it. Not even the US is such a great country that you could ignore such a huge democratic breach. On the other hand, if I'd tell you that 0.001% is the probability of a nuclear power plant blowing up within a year killing millions, you'd tell me: no problem there. But if the probability of catching a terrorist tapping a phone is 0.001% you'd go: woohooo good idea. Of course I agree with Goo: The end doesn't justify the means. Apart from that, Bush's behavior hurt the US reputation in the world badly, taking good arguments against dictatorships out of the hands of the democratic world. Oh, we had this before. I am familiar with the division of power, and you're right there probably is a "right" way of doing that in a republic or democracy. Remember what I said about the world being a more dangerous place though? Keep in mind the exact rules and definitions of division or power, democracy and so on are not carved in stone. In fact they can easily be subject to discussion or change. For example I believe American intellectuals have been discussing pre-emptive strikes and overthrowing dictatorships for a long time - one point of view being it should be easier to start wars against dictatorships. My point is this: Your argument that this is "wrong" is built on the assumption (or at least should be) that this element is infallible, inalterable and suitable also in 2006. A common point of view granted, but I think that even in this day in age, we sometimes need to free our mind and focus on what will help us today. Not everything that needed prohibition 50 or 20 years ago, needs it today. I dare claim sometimes these rules we get handed down need to be changed or altered to better suit our time. As for the civil rights thing again I suggest that if the evidence through these simplified taps can only be used in terrorist charges, wouldn't that eliminate the chance of the security people chasing folks just because they don't like their face? "But if the probability of catching a terrorist tapping a phone is 0.001%" - Yo? I don't usually miss sources but I would sure like to see one for this. And in any case hey, why not? Let me tell you if the Norwegian security service was wondering about me, tapping my phone would have them relaxed again very soon. It's a means of separating the harmless chaff from the few really lethal seeds, and if the American security service says it needs more such surveillance in 2006 to keep innocent out of harm's way, why should we doubt them? Like I said the world is more dangerous than it has been for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXS Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Being an immigrant to the USA I know this for sure. I was given the opportunity to make a new life here full of opportunity and freedoms I did not have back home. I am behind Knix defending his country 100% like it or not George Bush is the elected president by the majority of the people in the United States of America. It is an office that is worthy of repsect. In some countries if you talked about their leaders like I've read in this tread you would be placed in jail or even worse. It is the liberties of the USA that allows the opinions in this thread. I will not ban anyone for defending the leader of their country. You are all entitled to your opinions but you have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. WORD Oh, we had this before. Why not fix your own government first? There is 10 times more corruption and other problems in the US government then there are in the UN, and the UN is bigger and consists of many not too nice people. And you are sure about that Alexa? I don't think so. Fix the DeLays of your own government (<-- I feel so clever now) Delay has been acquited, THEN it's OK to criticise the UN. BS...I'll criticise it any time I feel like it because until given further notice, my country is a member of it Let's at least agree that wherever there are politicians there are crooks. Agreed....but lets also agree that your comments about the US government being 10 times more corrupt than the UN as grossly out of proportion. Lets also agree that Germany has been caught red handed violating UN resolutions and should be held accountable...same goes for France and Russia. Fix the corruption in your own country before you criticise mine....clear? The liberties of the USA and those of 210 other countries. Why not compare the US among other free, democratic countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surak Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I am behind Knix defending his country 100% like it or not George Bush is the elected president by the majority of the people in the United States of America. Is it always right to defend you country 100% just because the president is elected by the majoirty? No it isn't, and it is downright stupid. If you remember, Hitler was also chosen by the majority of Germany, if something like that would happen you'd also be 100% behind him, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Is it always right to defend you country 100% just because the president is elected by the majoirty? No it isn't, and it is downright stupid. If you remember, Hitler was also chosen by the majority of Germany, if something like that would happen you'd also be 100% behind him, no? Now I'm not a native of the USA but comparing George Bush to Hitler that is really low of you. Knix has every right to have pride in his country and his president. NO ONE has the right to deny him that. I don't see these guys ripping your leaders a new one cause no one on the planet is by any means perfect. It really is sad to read this concidering if these "bad americans" as you imply had not gone to bat for you there would probably be a different flag flying from your flag poles right now. I'm an immigrant and to see these guys take this from some of you makes me proud of the choice I made on where to move too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TNT] Sonic Goo Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I will not ban anyone for defending the leader of their country. You are all entitled to your opinions but you have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. I wasn't referring to the fact that he defends Bush. I was referring to the fact that he does so by means of personal attacks, by posting negative posts with the intention of starting an argument or to create tension in the community (aka trolling), his constant insults in general, not treating others with respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Sonic Goo' date='Jan 9 2006, 06:30 AM' post='25077'] I wasn't referring to the fact that he defends Bush. I was referring to the fact that he does so by means of personal attacks, by posting negative posts with the intention of starting an argument or to create tension in the community (aka trolling), his constant insults in general, not treating others with respect. Reading these posts you both are playing on the same level actually. It is a political conversation afterall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surak Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Now I'm not a native of the USA but comparing George Bush to Hitler that is really low of you. Knix has every right to have pride in his country and his president. NO ONE has the right to deny him that. I don't see these guys ripping your leaders a new one cause no one on the planet is by any means perfect. It really is sad to read this concidering if these "bad americans" as you imply had not gone to bat for you there would probably be a different flag flying from your flag poles right now. I'm an immigrant and to see these guys take this from some of you makes me proud of the choice I made on where to move too. I used Hitler as an example as most people don't happen to like him. Now tell me, would it be okay to compare him to Stalin? Futher more, I don't see "these guys ripping our leaders" no, instead they get whole Europe. And I'm getting really sick of those World War references, in WW2 Russia saved our arses. If not for the french America would still be a English colony. Please, atleast get your History right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I used Hitler as an example as most people don't happen to like him. Now tell me, would it be okay to compare him to Stalin? Futher more, I don't see "these guys ripping our leaders" no, instead they get whole Europe. And I'm getting really sick of those World War references, in WW2 Russia saved our arses. If not for the french America would still be a English colony. Please, atleast get your History right. And this topic has morphed from a debate about spying to a Anti-Bush topic which deviates from what it was supposed to be about. To be candid I'm tired of people morphing topics into anti-Bush ones every chance they get. He is the elected president of the United States by the will of the majority of the american people. So either get back on the topic of "Domestic Spying" or protecting our azzes or stop post in the topic. I am not native of america or europe and I am only interested in the topic staying on track. FYI Russia's army did not fight the Germans in your country they kep the Germans busy on the Eastern Front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[FF5]Knix Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I used Hitler as an example as most people don't happen to like him. Now tell me, would it be okay to compare him to Stalin? Futher more, I don't see "these guys ripping our leaders" no, instead they get whole Europe. And I'm getting really sick of those World War references, in WW2 Russia saved our arses. If not for the french America would still be a English colony. Please, atleast get your History right. I wish to thank General Lafayette for helping us out against the nasty British in the late 1700's. Merci Buckets! And as it is now legal, I will be tapping Sonic Goo's phone and IP address to make sure he doesn't not continue to "dog" my nation or its leader without retribution in kind . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantizen Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 So Knix wants Sonic Goo banned and Sonic Goo wants Knix banned. Interesting. Then the aliens came down, saw this and flew away without even introducing themselves. Knix and Goo are far from being the only ones with this kind of reaction to each other. It's a very common reaction to a conflict. Why don't we ALL ban each other from everything. We could uninstall Nolf 2 while we're at it. Well, let's take it slow. We should first start with warning each other. THEN go to editing and censoring and then the ban. Yeah. Now take your best shots at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surak Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 There's already being censored and edited. FYI Russia's army did not fight the Germans in your country they kep the Germans busy on the Eastern Front. They kept 3/4 of the German army busy, but your right the Russians did not fight here, the Canadians did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TNT] Sonic Goo Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Reading these posts you both are playing on the same level actually. It is a political conversation afterall Read again. I have gone out of my way to say something relevant, on topic and well researched and stay polite. All Knix does is attack the messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[FF5]Knix Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Never said I wanted Goo-Boy banned. I just want him to quit crapping on the US and our President, everytime there is a political discussion, or whenever the US, its policies, its leadership, its culture, its lawyers, etc, etc,etc come up. This has been the one constant since I've seen his posts back when we were in ST Phan. He feels I guess that it is his moral imperative to state his conscience. My opinion is that with his inbedded bias, and with the community heavily based in the country of his ire, he best take his politicatl Idiology somewhere else. I have no problem with him saying his famous "Hey You!" and talking about indy music, etc . I am not the only one who feels this way. He does this on every forum in the NOLF community. And I will continue to hound him in each. This is not a European bias. My mother is born/raised in Italy, and my father's family is from Latvia/Poland. This is a Sonic Goo Bias only...and only when he posts in the way I mention above. Please copy and paste this to a folder so I don't have to go over this once again . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXS Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 There's already being censored and edited. They kept 3/4 of the German army busy, but your right the Russians did not fight here, the Canadians did. You ungrateful bucket of donkey sweat - you are trying to diminish the lives of the Americans who lost their lives liberating your two horse country. Ever heard of Operation Market-Garden - guess what? Paratroopers from the 1st Allied Airborne Army dropped there and fought the Nazi's. Learn your history. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/time.../mkt-garden.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantizen Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Knix' date='Jan 8 2006, 11:22 AM' post='24861'] He's knows better not to do it in the FF5 forum, cuz I would have him banned to the stone-age. Knix' date='Jan 9 2006, 11:21 AM' post='25090'] Never said I wanted Goo-Boy banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TNT] Sonic Goo Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 This thread is a perfect example. I have never even mentioned Bush. I have never even said anything bad about the US in general. All I have adressed is the issue at hand, which in my opinion is against America's interests and and against everything America is supposed to stand for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [...] Remember what I said about the world being a more dangerous place though? Keep in mind the exact rules and definitions of division or power, democracy and so on are not carved in stone. In fact they can easily be subject to discussion or change. [...] As for the civil rights thing again I suggest that if the evidence through these simplified taps can only be used in terrorist charges, wouldn't that eliminate the chance of the security people chasing folks just because they don't like their face? "But if the probability of catching a terrorist tapping a phone is 0.001%" - Yo? I don't usually miss sources but I would sure like to see one for this. [...] The probability for being a victim of a terroristic attack is still not much bigger than the risk of being struck by a lightning. Using an airplane or driving a car is much more dangerous. Though if I didn't miss the point about all of this (which might be possible since I didn't watch so much news lately) it's about tapping on weak suspicion. I'm not against tapping, you can do it in Germany the way you can search a suspicious flat: get the OK from a judge by giving him good proof. Let's estimate: how many suspicious phone calls are there every day in the US? 10,000 at least. That makes 3,6 Million calls a year. How many of these are terrorists calls which, if caught, could save human lives? And for how long the terrorists will be stupid enough to get caught that way? Does the result justify the effort? Couldn't these resources be used in a better way against terrorists is my question. I am sure really suspicious persons may be tapped anyway in the US, the regular way by a judge viewing proof. I must say that I didn't answer in this thread because of the topic, but again because the slandering of the media and the UN. BS...I'll criticise it any time I feel like it because until given further notice, my country is a member of it Let's at least agree that wherever there are politicians there are crooks. Agreed....but lets also agree that your comments about the US government being 10 times more corrupt than the UN as grossly out of proportion. Lets also agree that Germany has been caught red handed violating UN resolutions and should be held accountable...same goes for France and Russia. Fix the corruption in your own country before you criticise mine....clear? Feel free to criticise the UN. When you do, I remind you that your own government is having the same issues. I can't speak for France and Russia, but I know that Fox News reported about Germany threatening other countries in the UN blahblah. This has been revealed as lies coming from Italy, a little aftermath for the iraq war troubles. More lies I heard were about ships with material for an atomic bomb coming from Germany to Iraq or trucks with chemical laboratories for chemical weapons (the trucks existed I think, analysis labs for water quality) etc...BS. I doubt that the German government violated resolutions. Feel free to share other information. And I do criticise my government too, I'm still not prepared to fix anything there (I wrote them a letter, but still no answer). Phant, if you can proof this alien thingy then I vote for banning Knix and Goo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[FF5]Knix Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I meant banning here Phan, in this community forum, not my own clan's forum. You ungrateful bucket of donkey sweat - you are trying to diminish the lives of the Americans who lost their lives liberating your two horse country. Ever heard of Operation Market-Garden - guess what? Paratroopers from the 1st Allied Airborne Army dropped there and fought the Nazi's. Learn your history. Double word....nah scratch that...Triple word. I guess we were just selling peanuts and working traffic control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surak Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 You ungrateful bucket of donkey sweat - you are trying to diminish the lives of the Americans who lost their lives liberating your two horse country. Ever heard of Operation Market-Garden - guess what? Paratroopers from the 1st Allied Airborne Army dropped there and fought the Nazi's. Learn your history. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/time.../mkt-garden.htm I'm not, and do you always try to insult other people who dont agree with you? But market garden wasn't all about liberating the Netherlands, its was mainly about taking the main bridges over the rivers to advance into Germany. Market Garden consisted of British, Polish, American and some Canadian forces. But the operation failed, after which the Allies retreated and never attempted anything again. The part south of the rivers was liberated in the period September–November 1944. However, the rest of the country, with a major part of the population, wasn't liberated until May 1945. The winter 1944–1945 was very harsh, and many Dutch starved, giving the winter the name Hongerwinter (Hunger winter) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_th...ds#World_War_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden Don't try to beat me with history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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