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Europeans Outraged at Schwarzenegger By VANESSA GERA, Associated Press Writer

Tue Dec 13, 9:54 AM ET

 

 

 

VIENNA, Austria - California's execution of Stanley Tookie Williams on Tuesday outraged many in Europe who regard the practice as barbaric, and politicians in Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's native Austria called for his name to be removed from a sports stadium in his hometown.

 

 

At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for justice matters denounced the death penalty for going against redemption and human dignity.

 

"We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," Cardinal Renato Martino told AP Television News. "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being. The death penalty is a negation of human dignity."

 

Capital punishment is illegal throughout the European Union, and many Europeans consider state-sponsored executions to be barbaric. Those feelings were amplified in the case of Williams, due to the apparent remorse they believe the Crips gang co-founder showed by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

 

Leaders of Austria's pacifist Green Party went as far as to call for Schwarzenegger to be stripped of his Austrian citizenship — a demand that was quickly rejected by Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel despite his government's opposition to the death penalty.

 

"Whoever, out of political calculation, allows the death of a person rehabilitated in such an exemplary manner has rejected the basic values of Austrian society," said Peter Pilz, a Greens leader.

 

In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove his name from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium."

 

"Mr. Williams had converted, and unlike Mr. Schwarzenegger, opposed every form of violence," said Richard Schadauer, the chairman of the Association of Christianity and Social Democracy.

 

Williams was executed early Tuesday at California's San Quentin State Prison after Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency. Schwarzenegger suggested that Williams' supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.

 

Criticism came quickly from many quarters, including the Socialist Party in France, where the death penalty was abolished in 1981.

 

"I am proud to be a Frenchman," party spokesman Julien Dray told RTL radio. "I am proud to live in France, in a country where we don't execute somebody 21 years later."

 

"Schwarzenegger has a lot of muscles, but apparently not much heart," Dray said.

 

In Italy, the country's chapter of Amnesty International called the execution "a cold-blooded murder."

 

"His execution is a slap in the face to the principle of rehabilitation of inmates, an inhumane and inclement act toward a person who, with his exemplary behavior and his activity in favor of street kids, had become an important figure and a symbol of hope for many youths," the group said.

 

In Germany, Volker Beck, a leading member of the opposition Greens party, expressed disappointment. "Schwarzenegger's decision is a cowardly decision," Beck told the Netzeitung online newspaper.

 

From London, Clive Stafford-Smith, a human rights attorney specializing in death penalty cases, called the execution "very sad."

 

"He was twice as old as when they sentenced him to die, and he certainly wasn't the same person that he was when he was sentenced," Stafford-Smith said.

 

Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said the city would keep Williams in its memory the next time it celebrates a victory against the death penalty somewhere in the world.

 

Rome's Colosseum, once the arena for deadly gladiator combat and executions, has become a symbol of Italy's anti-death penalty stance. Since 1999, the monument has been bathed in golden light every time a death sentence is commuted somewhere in the world or a country abolishes capital punishment.

 

"I hope there will be such an occasion soon," Veltroni said in a statement. "When it happens, we will do it with a special thought for Tookie."

 

___

 

Associated Press writers Ariel David in Rome, David Rising in Berlin and Angela Doland in Paris in London contributed to this report.

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This link has some graphic pictures of Tookies shotgun victims. Not for the sqeemish http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

 

It's amazing that you can do such atrocities and be considered a hero because you wrote some childrens books. Justice was served and Tookie paid his debt to society with his life.

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Gee, ten bucks says they're not whining about this:

 

China police kill village protesters

By Richard McGregor in Beijing

Published: December 12 2005 02:00 | Last updated: December 12 2005 02:00

 

The Chinese government says at least three villagers died last week after police fired on protesters in aconfrontation over demands for higher compensation for the loss of land to make way for the construction of a power plant.

 

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Well emotionally I would want the killer of e.g. my child death. But the good question is: what is it good for?

Who tells you what's his debt to society, RXS? Your rational mind?

 

Injustice and poverty are the reasons for the gangland in the US, aren't they? It's plain simply a lie that everybody has equal chances in the US. And a man like Arnold should shut his m****rf***ing mouth about the poor mexican immigrant that has the chance to get rich. When Arnie came to the US, he wasn't a poor worker but Mr. Universe or so. And I'd kill myself in the cell before I'd beg for my life to some bodybuilder/actor. That's ridiculous!

 

As long as your working poor are having less money than our European unemployed there will be such brutal killings. But relax. Looking to france and the riots there shows that Europe, and soon my own country is on the way to exactly your situation. Violence via poverty and hopelessness IS true, and it's slowly coming to us, thanks to the politicians and the companies.

 

Some biased US media (and even the unbiased Fox News) reported that the trial WAS indeed doubtful and the evidences not too trustworthy. I'd say before I take a life I have to be 100% sure. 99% ARE NOT ENOUGH.

 

[independent' date=Dec 13 2005, 09:55 PM' post='20149]

Gee, ten bucks says they're not whining about this:

 

The Chinese government says at least three villagers died last week after police fired on protesters in aconfrontation over demands for higher compensation for the loss of land to make way for the construction of a power plant.

 

True is that countries all over the world making big money with China. And occasionally in the event of this silently criticise the violations of human rights there. But the big difference is: China isn't trying to spread its values around. The US is! And if the US wants to get all of us barbarians into civilisation, it should practise what it's preaching. It isn't. And you lost 10 bucks. But I must admit that the US is more in the focus for the EU, since we need EACH other, believe it or not. I personally do not care so much for China.

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Well emotionally I would want the killer of e.g. my child death. But the good question is: what is it good for?

Who tells you what's his debt to society, RXS? Your rational mind?

Wipe the tears from your eyes and I'll answer your condescending question. It was not me who decided what his debt to society is. It was the combination of a judge and grand jury (jury of his peers) who were presented with all the facts surrounding this guys violent actions. These same men and women were acting in accordance with and under the juristiction of the laws of this nation. They found that his debt to society and punishment for his actions was death. IF their was a reasonable doubt, he would not have been convicted.

 

If you don't want these violent criminals punished, maybe they could come live with you, or maybe you could feed, shelter and clothe them for the rest of their life. Don't make this guy out to be a victim. He made a concious decission to shoot four innocent people. This was not a crime of passion/rage...it was a systematic slaughter of a family (Father, Mother, and daughter) and a simple clerk just trying to scratch a living. It's no secret that if you shed innocent blood in the United States of America, you can qualify for the death penalty. Plain and simple.

 

Don't give me that boohoo about how poor people do this just to survive. There are plenty of social service and welfare programs that feed and clothe people in the US.

Edited by RXS
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Euros are probably mad because they dont know what a Crip is,

they probably think its a boys scout club...

I dont think Tookie shouldve been killed because

he was a Crip leader and couldve helped reduce gang activity.

i dont really believe in the death penalty, i think

a lifetime in prison is good enough punishment.

he WILL die eventually but let god decide when not us.

 

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Wipe the tears from your eyes and I'll answer your condescending question.

Wasn't ment condescending. Was ment honest. If I'm going condescending, you'll notice (look below).

 

IF their was a reasonable doubt, he would not have been convicted.

Congrats. Nobody has ever been convicted who was innocent. Truly a great system you're having. Wish I had your belief.

 

If you don't want these violent criminals punished, maybe they could come live with you, or maybe you could feed, shelter and clothe them for the rest of their life. Don't make this guy out to be a victim.

Neither do I wish to not punish violent criminals, nor do I want to make him a victim. I didn't even say that I'm against the death penalty, I was just asking questions.

 

Don't give me that boohoo about how poor people do this just to survive. There are plenty of social service and welfare programs that feed and clothe people in the US.

Not true. True. Not true. True. No no, I stick to: BS. My roommate has been living with a US police officer who had another job to get meals on the table for his family. And I think the ghettos speak for themselves. And the US minimum wages are no secret either.

 

 

Foxsy, at least I don't think that a gang is a bunch of genetically inferior ethnic minority peeps who love to kill because they are too lazy to pick up their welfare check.

 

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Wasn't ment condescending. Was ment honest. If I'm going condescending, you'll notice (look below).

Congrats. Nobody has ever been convicted who was innocent. Truly a great system you're having. Wish I had your belief. It's the best system we have, and their are safe gaurds in place to protect the innocent (i.e. look how long Tookie was on death row...not exactly a rash execution). True, DNA testing and forensic techonolgy has cleared a very small percentage of people on death row, but the flip side is it has condemend and sealed the fate of others. I'll take my chances with the US judicial system any day...espcially when compared to any other government's system.

Neither do I wish to not punish violent criminals, nor do I want to make him a victim. I didn't even say that I'm against the death penalty, I was just asking questions. (Funny way of asking questions you have....more accusational it seems).

Not true. True. Not true. True. No no, I stick to: BS. My roommate has been living with a US police officer who had another job to get meals on the table for his family. And I think the ghettos speak for themselves. And the US minimum wages are no secret either. Oh, so your room mate knows all about the US because he lived with a cop....great. It's all about choices and the lifestyle you want to live. If you want more, you typically have to work more...there are no free lunches around here (unless you are sitting next to a liberal who will steal the lunch from someone who has worked for it and gives it to someone who has not) :lol:

Edited by RXS
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True, DNA testing and forensic techonolgy has cleared a very small percentage of people on death row, but the flip side is it has condemend and sealed the fate of others.

And I say not 100% sure, no death penalty.

 

I'll take my chances with the US judicial system any day...espcially when compared to any other government's system.

I'm not happy with any judicial system. But there are a lot of things to critisize about the US system. Jury choosing e.g. is an important part of constructing the result of a trial. This has nothing to do with justice. More with a good lawyer. I don't say which system is better or best, though.

 

 

Oh, so your room mate knows all about the US because he lived with a cop....great. It's all about choices and the lifestyle you want to live. If you want more, you typically have to work more...there are no free lunches around here (unless you are sitting next to a liberal who will steal the lunch from someone who has worked for it and give it to someone who has not).

No, but he has seen a lot because he has travelled the whole country for months. He's seen ghettos in Detroit where not even the police dares to go for example. Can you imagine a country where you can visit every part of every city at night without being attacked, mugged or are in danger of being killed? I know a whole lot of those countries. Foxsy is right, I do not have the faintest idea what a gang is. By now....

 

Give the poor a chance to become well educated and rich and then judge them if they are lazy or too dumb to learn or they still kill other people. As long as money is the best means to make money (and not working) there will be killings, and I DO not defend the killers, but see the reality.

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Give the poor a chance to become well educated and rich and then judge them if they are lazy or too dumb to learn or they still kill other people. As long as money is the best means to make money (and not working) there will be killings, and I DO not defend the killers, but see the reality.

 

And that, my friend, is exactly what has happened. We have gone the way of affimative action, we have free ride scholarships for various ethnic backgrounds, we have Federal Grants, we have interest free and low interest school loans for minorities, we reserve classroom seats in colleges for minorities (even when a more qualified caucasion candidate is available), we have free tutoring programs, etc, etc, etc. The funny thing is that a lot of these go unused. A lot of times, as strange as this sounds to you and me, they don't care to leave their old lifestyle behind. Some do however, and koodo's to them for making something more out of their life. (The fact is, there is discrimination against being white)

 

Just remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

As shocking as this may seem, Europe is no Eutopia either. I've seen the wretched and poor on your streets as well (rember the riots in Paris?)

Edited by RXS
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As shocking as this may seem, Europe is no Eutopia either. I've seen the wretched and poor on your streets as well (rember the riots in Paris?)

Yes I do remember, but as I stated before I know this is coming to us, slowly but certain. And even here it's a discriminated ethnic minority that's rioting. Strange coincidence....

 

And that, my friend, is exactly what has happened. We have gone the way of affimative action, we have [...]

 

Just remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Anyway, I can feel an agreement coming up. Perhaps this just needs some time to take effect. Good luck for this. Every dead is one too much...

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wow alexa. your comments are nothing more than senseless babblery. take a pill please. no take two.

 

 

couple of comments

 

why do non-americans spend all their time bitching and moaning about what's wrong with america? what's the obsession?

 

why is it ok to kill an innocent fetus (via abortion), but it's wrong to kill a convicted cold blooded killer?

 

why doesn't anyone discuss what the families of these 4 murdered people have endured these last 25 years? why are they ignored?

 

 

we are accountable for our actions. if you are not willing to pay the price.........think twice. dam that was pretty good. lol

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Ahnold was not rich when he came to this country. You didn't get paid tons of $$$ when he won the Mr. Universe titles. He came to this country worked hard...did some crap movies (see Hercules) ...and built up his rep into the action figure roles. He is now the REPUBLICAN Governor of the most populated state in the US. He worked hard, moved up the ladder, and gained success...Novel idea eh?

 

 

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Yes I do remember, but as I stated before I know this is coming to us, slowly but certain. And even here it's a discriminated ethnic minority that's rioting. Strange coincidence....

 

Oh the Paris riots? RXS those guys torching ladies in wheelchairs, beating an old man to death and easing the French toll on the environment by burning all those ancients cars they drive around in, don't live on the street! They have appartments, they have the same rights as others in France to go to school, they get medical attention when needed and they enjoy generous welfare programs. If I could do so without risking being labelled a racist I would say most of this gang is spoiled babies and wannabe terrorists.

 

If you aren't getting any breaks, then you need to work harder than the rest, build something up on your own, take the profits from that and move on up. Other nationalities in France, like Vietnamese people, have started their own businesses, have a high employment rate (if you can speak of such a thing in France) and seem quite well adapted. Fact is everyone in France is struggling with the high unemployment. You could also easily find well qualified, blonde and blue eyes French people who are being rejected for job after job. Making that into purely a race thing, is preying on Europe's almost self-destructive need to be generous and forgiving to the borders of madness with those whose values differ from ours. (Meanwhile as a continent we sure know how to be petty in for example transatlantic relations... Sigh)

 

Now I know you will think this is a horrible thing to say Alexa, but could it be that discrimination just isn't even 50% of the answer to why those punks were rioting inbugging Paris? Many of those boys were still of school age you know... Have never been rejected for a job in his life, go to the same school as other French people, in fact they should be doing their homework to get good grades to make something of themselves, but no. And in any case please tell me how torching a woman in a wheelchair is a direct consequence of being poor. (No don't row out of that one because you just said shooting innocents with a shotgun is a logical consequence of stuggling financially and socially) I know it's much easier to take self-criticism and say the French system is horribly flawed, but any sound system (as the French one largely was in my opinion) demands from its citizens a real will and a real effort to participate in society, to stay within the law and most importantly to work hard.

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Euros are probably mad because they dont know what a Crip is,

they probably think its a boys scout club...

 

I thought it was like diahorrea or something........... (did I spell that right FoXSy?? B) )

 

I know a few guys down the pub that agreed with the execution, they were from europe, well Bourenmouth anyway!

 

Does nobody in the States think the state shouldn't take lives.........

 

http://www.savetookie.org/

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why do non-americans spend all their time bitching and moaning about what's wrong with america? what's the obsession?

 

why is it ok to kill an innocent fetus (via abortion), but it's wrong to kill a convicted cold blooded killer?

 

why doesn't anyone discuss what the families of these 4 murdered people have endured these last 25 years? why are they ignored?

Because as I said, america is trying to spread its values around HEAVIELY, sometimes even using bombs. Prepare to be criticized if you are having troups all over the world either based or at war. No I'm not gonna argue about that any more with you, since I know you'r opinion to that.

 

Is abortion ok? The innovent fetus problem has been discussed so often....and again, not the slightes doubt that he is an killer? That is MY question. By the way, as far as I know the cathlic church (protestants also, since I am one) condemns killing a human being even if it's a killer. Just a note.

 

You're right, the murderer getting the coverage in the news and the families of the victims being left out is single-sided. On the other hand I wonder: Even if you as a familie member of a victim of him hated him enough to kill him yourself, what do you think about his death 21 years later?

 

 

Knix' date='Dec 14 2005, 04:53 AM' post='20243']

Ahnold was not rich when he came to this country. You didn't get paid tons of $$$ when he won the Mr. Universe titles. He came to this country worked hard...did some crap movies (see Hercules) ...and built up his rep into the action figure roles. He is now the REPUBLICAN Governor of the most populated state in the US. He worked hard, moved up the ladder, and gained success...Novel idea eh?

Arnold wasn't poor when he came to your country. He was comparing himself to a poor immigrant to get their votes. That still is ridiculous. Apart from that, times have changed. And their are enough good books in the US deconstructing the american dream lie.

 

Oh the Paris riots? RXS those guys torching ladies in wheelchairs, beating an old man to death and easing the French toll on the environment by burning all those ancients cars they drive around in, don't live on the street! They have appartments, they have the same rights as others in France to go to school, they get medical attention when needed and they enjoy generous welfare programs. If I could do so without risking being labelled a racist I would say most of this gang is spoiled babies and wannabe terrorists.

Then you must have other information than I have. First racism in France IS a big problem. And the argumentation of some of them was that living under the wrong address or having the wrong color of skin prevents them to get jobs. Even the address!

 

To the rest of your posting Spacko: Hopelessness is the most importent part of the problem, not the unemployment. And unfair treatment is about the worst you can do to a human being, in times where the (monetary) status has gotten most important to many humans. And yes, I think it's a horrible thing to pretend everyone is equal and has good chances, gets too high welfare, good medical treatment. Well, must be genetically then or what is the non blue eyes non blonde hair's problem?

 

And how many Vietnamese restaurants do you need? No jobs for MASSES there. Fact is the weakest, worst educated etc. are having the biggest problems on the job market. And that are, own fault or not, the minorities. It is an astonishing coincidence that america IS HAVING the problem, and France with its slums is getting them too, don't you think? Can't prove it, but time will tell. And I don't want to be here when it's happening.

 

From your question about school kids I can see you haven't been living in a poor area. I went to school there. Trust me, kids get heavily loaded with their parents problems. That is your answer.

 

One more thing about our pettyness in the transatlantic relationship: The EU is not a small stain on the map with no economic power or population, sorry. We have the right to play on a top position in the game of world and I hope we do. We wouldn't need the US for this. But despite the constant allegation of anti-amercanism (and the showing of anti-europism even here) we need each other, all sides are important and will remain so. In the masses, judging from where I am there is no mutual hate.

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Alexa, how do you think our troops got to be all over the world? WWI, you guys begged

and begged for us to come save your asses. We came and saved your asses. WWII, you guys begged and begged us to come save your asses. We came and saved your asses. Of course, we couldn't just leave the second that Hitler pulled his personal trigger -- it's just logisticaly impossible. So we stayed around to help with the rebuilding efforts, to hopefully create a Europe where another murderous tyrant wouldn't rise to power in the next 20 years. Then, of course, there was the Soviet threat, where you guys needed our protective shield to prevent you becoming the next Poland or East Germany. Then, once that threat receeded (thanks 100% to Republican leadership in the US) and we considered pulling some of those troops you hate so much out, all we get is whining and puling about how devastating to your economies such a pullout would be. Then along comes Slobodan Milosivich, and the blue-helmeted bumblers of the UN were totally helpless to do anything about his slaughter of poor muslims. So, yeah, we came and bailed your asses out of another mess. It's not exactly like our troops have been sent out to win territory for the US to expand into, now, is it? Otherwise, you guys would all be flying the Stars and Stripes and whistling Dixie. Instead of constantly bitching about us, maybe you can thank God for us, and realize just what your life would be like without our "spreading our values around, sometimes using bombs."

 

I have really enjoyed playing and chatting with you, Alexa, for a long time now. I like you. I'm really pissed at you right now, but I know we can still be friends, right?

 

Indy

Edited by [GD]Independent
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Independent' date='Dec 14 2005, 02:49 PM' post='20254']

I have really enjoyed playing and chatting with you, Alexa, for a long time now. I like you. I'm really pissed at you right now, but I know we can still be friends, right?

 

Indy

Jup, I'd say so. Think such an exchange is part of live, nothing more, nothing less.

I hope to play more DM again soon...gonna shoot ya then

 

Don't get me wrong on my values and bombs statement. This is not about judging or being ungrateful for what the USA has done for the world. But it's true and the world is watching you. I replied here mainly because of your post since:

 

The US (and most of the rest of the world) are criticizing China for human rights violations such as:

 

- Torture

- Political killing of e.g. poor rioting farmers

 

But when it comes to torture of terrorists, or death penalty you know that you're right in doing this. Still China can point the finger to you and argue that they are just as right as you are. I think it's a dangerous situation, despite all our best knowledge that China is wrong there (and I don't doubt that).

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Knix' date='Dec 14 2005, 04:10 PM' post='20262']

You seriously need to change your name to [GD] Republican.

:lol: But admitted, if i'd wear a hat I'd take it off to Reagan and his cold war politics.

 

Alexa, Arnold made his Millions here...not in Austria, don't kid yourself.

Right he did. Still he didn't arrive at the US in the back of a dirty truck which was heading to a factory where he'd screw screws into screwholes. He's more or less the prove that a bodybuilder with the title Mr. Universe can get attention of the worlds biggest bodybuilder society, which then brought him to the US and helped him greatly with his career. And I've got Perry Rhodan magazines here where he's featuring by now long forbidden muscle drug commercials. He at least made some money with that. I don't read those magazines, really.

 

There are certainly many better examples for somebody coming to the US with nothing (but an idea probably) and having success.

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Alexa, you make a good case, but I am still not able to feel much sympathy for those rioters. People work their way out of tougher conditions every day. In all people, from all ethnicities, from all ages and both genders, the one thing I expect is a willingness to take their situation, whatever it may be, and work to move up from it without blaming circumstances. My point about the Vietnamese wasn't that they are the solution to the world's employment problems but that they have an exceptional will to work find good solutions in stead of complaining about the problems.

 

Unfortunately or luckily (however you want to see it), I don't think there's any country in the world that will provide a smashing life for those who aren't willing to work twice as hard if it's twice as hard for them to be sucessful. Aside from France, Scandinavia might be the best we have.

 

And in any case... Torching people's property and killing innocent people? I don't care how hopeless things feel. The guilty should never be out on the streets again.

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BTW -- As to opportunities for the poor in this country. I grew up never knowing my father. My mother and I subsisted on food stamps and

Toys for Tots and used clothing. I went to a different school in a new city each year until 7th grade while my mom worked her way through

nursing school. I had to wear the same clothes to school about twice per week. I worked at least full time at a Kentucky Fried Chicken

(in direct violation of child labor laws) and had a paper route all through high school. I worked 2-3 minimum wage jobs at a time all through college, from washing dishes in restaurants to cleaning bathrooms at the University. It took me 8 years to complete my undergrad degree under these circumstances. I know about being poor. I worked my fingers to the bone to get where I am (I'm very comfortable now, thank you). No one handed me anything for being white. This is the greatest country in the world. We do not guarantee economic equality. We guarrantee equality of opportunity, and I am living, breathing proof of this fact.

Edited by [GD]Independent
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Well done, Independent! You're a great example to others to never give up. :D

 

Obviously it's frustrating when you can't get people to move to your side of the fence, but when each side is 100% sure they are right and the other is wrong, it's going to be a stalemate every time. I'm just glad we keep the debating here and can still have fun in the servers. :)

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