Marshall Law

[[FF5]Knix]

I dunno which of you guys' slopes is the most slippery one... No, in fact I do know, sorry.

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Now class the above quote is a perfect example of the "Tin man Fallacy"

 

Person A is speaking to Person B (telling him to shove it up his liberal caboose, and go back to licking the blarney stone...granted i am paraphrasing but...i digress)

Person C comes into the picture and tries to use sarcasm towards Person A which while admirable as it is not his native tongue, still falls slightly short of the mark.

Person B comes BACK into the topic in say 30 minutes and see's this post and sez "KNIX I AM USING FACTS, ALL YOU DO IS MAKE JOKES, I HAVE PROOF THAT YOU ARE ATTACKING ME...LINK! LINK!...LINK!

 

And this class is the tin man fallacy, made up in the sick mind of Knix.

 

 

[Genesis]

Now class the above quote is a perfect example of the "Tin man Fallacy"

 

Person A is speaking to Person B (telling him to shove it up his liberal caboose, and go back to licking the blarney stone...granted i am paraphrasing but...i digress)

Person C comes into the picture and tries to use sarcasm towards Person A which while admirable as it is not his native tongue, still falls slightly short of the mark.

Person B comes BACK into the topic in say 30 minutes and see's this post and sez "KNIX I AM USING FACTS, ALL YOU DO IS MAKE JOKES, I HAVE PROOF THAT YOU ARE ATTACKING ME...LINK! LINK!...LINK!

 

And this class is the tin man fallacy, made up in the sick mind of Knix.

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ROFL good analysis, Knixie

Uh, could you tell me what kinda mistake I made, by the way? I knew I could be wrong, but I just could not think of anything better...

 

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Knix, what are you talking about? The first comment you quoted is about post # 9, where RXS keeps talking about how shooting people on site is some sort of justice. Using the expression 'shoot first, ask questions later' is a quite accurate description of that. More like an understatement than an exaggeration. Certainly not a straw man if that's what you're trying to imply.

 

The next line you quote refers to RXS's repeated statement of 'passing out hugs' which has never been my position and was totally made up by RXS. Now that is a straw man.

 

Better now?

 

RXS: what slippery slope would that be? Are you denying that shooting people would escalate the situation? Please explain why, then.

[RXS]

Sonic Goo,Sep 2 2005, 12:18 PM]shooting people on site is some sort of justice.

 

Sounds like your getting the war you're asking for:

 

 

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Oooops...now you are poisoning the well (not to mention taking it out of context).

 

Sonic Goo,Sep 2 2005, 12:18 PM]RXS: what slippery slope would that be? Are you denying that shooting people would escalate the situation? Please explain why, then.

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Yes, indeed I am denying that it would escalate the situation. This isn't Iraq so don't even try to make the comparison. This isn't a case where a country is being taken over...we are talking about restoring peace on sovereign soil (which is what the majority want to see as well).

 

I'm also denying that the National Guard will turn into a blood thirsty group intent on killing everyone who looks cross-eyed at them as implied by you and Gen. They are there to restore law and order so that the innocent lives of their countrymen may be saved. They are highly trained humans with a specific objective capable of making judgement calls, not wild, blood thirsty killers.

 

Kind of tough to ask questions when you are being shot at or when you yell "stop! Police!" and they run away on foot to regroup and engage in looting again. We've got some extreme circumstances that have rendered the police ineffective. Bringing in more police to have them carryout their business the same way will yield the same result - in fact, I don't believe you can bring in enough police to make a difference with that type of direction - and apparently neither does the Govenor of Louisiana and the Mayor of NO as they have given the National Guard a "shoot hoodlums" directive.

 

 

Everyone's an armchair critic...where are your solutions for how to handle the problem?

[[FF5]Knix]

Goo boy, it took a line from what you said to RXS from one post, and another line from You to RXS accusing him of the dreaded Straw man. The first line i quoted refers to you doing the same thing. Just admit ya got busted. Its ok. It happens.

 

(fast forward to Sat morning post)

 

BUT ! KNIX! BUT! THE FIRST POST WAS CONNECTED TO THE SECOND POST WAS CONNECTED TO THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS, WAS CONNECTED TO TREATY OF VERSAILLES WHICH PROVES THAT I WAS NOT USING THE STRAWMAN FALLACY.......AND GEORGE BUSH IS DUMMY WITH BIG EARS!....AND HERE IS A LINK FOR THE WIERNERSHNITZEL INSTITUTE OF POLITICAL SCIENCE TO PROVE IT!" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH YAYAYAYAYAYAYA AHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

 

Then his blows up...very sad story.

 

Please goo boy promise never ever ever to leave this forum. I would have to stop using the internet .

 

 

[Eliteone]

Correct me if I'm wrong alot of the people posting in this topic out side the US are from "socialist" type governments.

If I understand that type of government correctly how do you think they'd respond in a similar type situation?

 

It the situation has gotten out of hand for whatever reason then steps should be taken to bring it under control as quickly as possible to save as many as you can and guarantee the safety of law enforcement, medical personel and people who need to start repairing the infrastructure.

 

 

 

(Genesis a FYI Louisiana isn't the poorest state in the US) The port of New Orleans handles alot of the Imports to the US and alot of the Exports from the Midwest (farming goods such as corn, wheat) New Orleans is also a fairly popular tourist destination.

 

Goo- part of the problem with arresting people right now too is there is no place to hold them (Jails are in ruins etc)

[blue]

i agree with RXS on this issue. the federal government has done jack sh1t in preventing and alleviating the desctruction left by katrina. martial law is probably one of the better things to do. in the superdome, people indiscriminately rape people, shooting off guns, and looting big screen tv's. i hardly doubt some national guard is gonna pop a cap in someone carrying baby formula or food. in certain streets in NO, rescue people haven't even traveled down certain roads. just the other day a rescue boat went down a street and discovered a man tapping on an attic window since he was trapped in. when the boat went to rescue him, he told them to go next door where 2 women with children were still trapped.

 

i live in houston, which is now becoming one of the main metropolitan cities that refugees are going to for shelter. the astrodome, which was believed to house 25,000 people, are now only housing 12,000. thousands of people are waiting outside with no where to go and are beginning to start trouble.

 

genesis and goo talk about the loss of innocent lives due to martial law, and ask what if a person shot injustly were my brother or uncle or father etc. what if one of those people being raped were your sister or daughter or girlfriend or mother. aren't they innocent as well? the only reason someone would be shot or shot at is because of the rules that apply while a region is under martial law.

[Genesis]

Goo- part of the problem with arresting people right now too is there is no place to hold them (Jails are in ruins etc)

 

Yeah, prisons are overpopulated worldwide even when there's no hurricane around, but that's not really an argument, is it? Ah, I see, it's easier to store people HORIZONTALLY than VERTICALLY. You can make big piles.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

RXS: let's just see what happens when people start shooting, ok? I predict much unnecessary pain and suffering. It's simply a general rule that shooting people does not solve problems. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with justice (see also the end of this post).

 

Knix: if that's what you meant, then why was there no mention of that in your post? O wait, you're changing your story. Nevermind.

 

(and considering the inflation the word war has undergone in recent years, it seemed quite suitable for this situation and especially the sentiment expressed by RXS)

 

EliteOne: firstly, I'm a Dutch citizen, a country currently being ruled by the CDA (Christian Democrats), VVD (Liberals, as in: right wing) and a party called D'66 (pretty much in the center next to CDA, but with different stands on certain issues). No socialists there. I'm living in Ireland, a country ruled by Fianna Fail (centrist republican) and Progressive Democrats (right-wing liberals). No socialists there either. As I've said elsewhere before, the only reason Europe looks left from overthere is that you're so far to the right.

Anyway, the question what the government would do if something like that would happen here is rather academic, because this kind of thing doesn't happen here. Like I've said above, I think the reason for this is lack of motive (less income disparity) and lack of means (less weapons among the populace). Possibly a deeper lying cause would be the lack of a 'every man for himself' mentality here.

As for where to put any prisoners you take: put them on the transports that are going back after delivering aid and process them somewhere outside the disaster area where they have the time and means to do so. Like most other relief efforts, this kind of thing is not that hard to do and can be organised quite quickly. Especially in a civilised modern country. Why this hasn't happened, is beyond me.

 

Blue: if something like that happened to anyone I know, I'd demand justice, not vengeance. Because the first is right and the second is wrong. Just because something is understandable, is a feeling many people would naturally have, does not make it the right thing to do.

[Eliteone]

Good Debate.

 

It is easy to say the "that wouldn't happen here" though. How many natural disasters have people been truly prepared for?

 

 

Also on the transport argument so transport the "thugs" instead of the honest victims?

 

I'm not native to the United States, though I have US citizenship now. It just bothers me to see a event like this to be turned into an Anti-American "event"

 

Last December Americans didn't hesitate to send aid through charities and even dispatching the military (US Navy) to fly in supplies. Americans are perhaps the most charitable people as a nation in he entire world. The US Government gives foreign aid to alot of countries, There solders have fought for the freedom of alot of people all over the world in the past. Now before people roll with that one I just wanted to make a point that you should not turn this into a bash the US type of topic is all.

 

While you may not agreed with the US Government policies in regards to political matters fact is we are talking about people who are suffering and people who are exploiting that suffering. Those two factors could happen anywhere and should not be twisted into a slam someone's government.

[RXS]

Sonic Goo,Sep 2 2005, 06:12 PM]RXS: let's just see what happens when people start shooting, ok? I predict much unnecessary pain and suffering. It's simply a general rule that shooting people does not solve problems. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with justice (see also the end of this post).

 

(and considering the inflation the word war has undergone in recent years, it seemed quite suitable for this situation and especially the sentiment expressed by RXS)

 

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You're on... reports coming out of NO indicate it is already working as law and order is being restored.

 

By the way, what is this sentiment expressed by RXS? Are you referring to shooting thugs in the act of 'storming', killing, vandalizing and looting? Your whole comment in parenthesis is difficult to understand.

 

"It's simply a general rule that shooting people does not solve anything"

....seems to work where I come from. Make the choice to shoot at/kill a policeman or a rescue worker... the consequence likely = death. Problem solved. No more thug to worry about. These guys act as cowards...once one or two them are culled from the heard, the rest quickly back down.

 

Still no alternative solution offered other than "put them on a bus and process them somewhere else....hmmmm....we can barely get buses into NO to get sick and dieing people out because these hoodlums are shooting at rescuers much less get these monkeys on a bus and ship them "somewhere else". We can't even detain these thugs as they are too swift on foot....but somehow we are supposed to lure them onto a bus where they will sit quietly and peacefully for the long ride back to "somewhere else" where they can be processed. I wonder how we get them to leave their guns behind and get on the bus? Maybe we can trade them hugs for guns. Call me too detail oriented, but I see that as big stumbling block.

[Surak]

Last December Americans didn't hesitate to send aid through charities and even dispatching the military (US Navy) to fly in supplies. Americans are perhaps the most charitable people as a nation in he entire world. The US Government gives foreign aid to alot of countries,

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Almost everyone does. Do you think every European country sits on his lazy but when a big disaster happens? No. They do exactly the same.

Maybe you haven't heard yet but as far I know France, Spain, Germany, England, Netherlands, Venezuela and even Cuba offered help.

[Genesis]

OMG OMG OMG... Let's get back to the basics.

 

Last December Americans didn't hesitate to send aid through charities and even dispatching the military (US Navy) to fly in supplies. Americans are perhaps the most charitable people as a nation in he entire world. The US Government gives foreign aid to alot of countries, There solders have fought for the freedom of alot of people all over the world in the past. Now before people roll with that one I just wanted to make a point that you should not turn this into a bash the US type of topic is all.

 

Firstly, you're, once more, thinking that we bash the country, instead of its government. Nowhere in this topic did I see anything against US people, not a word about a possible lack of charity, nothing about their fights for freedom or anything like this. Goo pointed that RXS's "solution" was not the best to his mind, it's his right, we also said that if the US GOVERNMENT (not US PEOPLE) had dealt with the causes (see the levee issue in NO) they wouldn't have to deal with such horrible consequences right now, etc. Your government is the most powerful political entity on this planet, acting like a counterweight in many pro-social or pro-environmental issues, so, expect it to be criticized from time to time. That's quite normal, those who have the power are critisized, which doesn't necessarily mean that WE would do better in the same situation. But we are NOT criticizing US people.

 

Now Elite, we're "bashing" people we don't agree with, and you're "bashing" us in return, that's called a debate. I disagree with RXS (and therefore, with your government, now) because I think measures like this are something that should not have to be taken in a civilized country in the 21st century. Not all americans are pro-Bush, remember, not all americans agree with you right now, and would you say they are "anti-american" too? Will people have to be Republican to get citizenship, one of those days? So, anything that comes from people who don't agree with you is anti-american propaganda, uh?

 

(And Goo's right, which European country is really "socialist" right now? In western Europe, I'd say around zero. France has been ruled by a right-wing government since 1995. Yep, Mr Chirac is not a socialist, far from that.)

[RXS]

(And Goo's right, which European country is really "socialist" right now? In western Europe, I'd say around zero. France has been ruled by a right-wing government since 1995. Yep, Mr Chirac is not a socialist, far from that.)

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You're kidding right? I guess it's a matter of perspective

 

 

 

This isn't an issue of being pro Bush...you are distorting the situation and trying to turn it into political bash.

 

No one is debating that the lack of levee upgrades have compounded this mess. We have known for over a decade that this scenario could happen if a 200 yr storm came through. Those in the know held their breath every time a hurricane came into the gulf for fear it would be "the one". Before Bush, there was a an eight year democratic reign that new about it too...they did nothing for the Levee so stop trying to pin it all on the Bush admin....there is plenty of blame to go around when we get to that point. You might want to know that it is a democratic Govenor and a democratic mayor that requested the shoot on site / Martial Law. So it's not a matter of politics, it's a matter of getting the job done.

 

There is an underlying tone in your comments that America is barbaric for their method of restoring law and order in your prior post. This brings me back to the same question I've posed 20 times already...how else do you do it? I just watched a video clip saying that there were a few minor gun battles as the Nat'l Guard went into various parts of the city, but that there hasn't been any gun shots for quite some time. Just as we have seen several times before, these cowards back down when directly confronted. They've had their day of reign, but for the most part, it's all over because a superior force is taking over the city.

[[FF5]Knix]

Knix: if that's what you meant, then why was there no mention of that in your post? O wait, you're changing your story. Nevermind.

 

(and considering the inflation the word war has undergone in recent years, it seemed quite suitable for this situation and especially the sentiment expressed by RXS)

 

 

I said the same thing in the first post, as I did in my next post. You got caught doing the same thing to RXS, that you accused him of doing to you. You can go around and around and around, my point was still the same.

 

Your views are consistant at least. You harbor great resentment of the US Government, and our way of life. You jump at the opportunity to try and put a ugly american in his place, and this is your (pun intended) forum to get all the angst you hold off your chest. You take this holier then thou attitude and then protest when your views piss people off. You accuse someone of not staying on your method of discussion, and then go do the same thing. I say blue, you say black. THis is what gets you off. You're views and stance make you my forum arch enemy, and I promise to bust your chops, mock you, and frusterate every topic which you go on your biased rant.

 

SO please link away. Post a roll of the eyes Smilie. Any forum in this community where I see you trying to pull this crap (and I know you hit every one), I'll be there, sarcasm in my holsters, and hi-jack the beejezzzzzus out of all your lame attempts to piss-on my country. You can try and hide behind "Formal adult debate" but its not that at all, both you and I know it. You all remember the post I made a while back about what views you admire about the other side....libs for constervatives, and conservatives for libs. As the US is a conservative country, it was more to see how a few liberal people in this community would react. Genesis and a few others came up with some good things, cuz they don't hold the hate that you have, the petty jealousy, the self rightousness that you accuse the right of holding that you in fact hold yourself. Their views are open to introspection. You ....You came up with "Liking some country music" as a back handed compliment. I rehash this old post because it is a perferct example of what I'm talking about regarding your true purpose here. So me and a few others here are not going to just sit back and debate with your hatred...

 

[Eliteone]

Um....................What does a natural disaster have to do with President George Bush Genesis? That's my point this situation has become "fodder" for the "Lets take a shot at the Bush administration in this thread"

 

Do I like everything the current administration in the US is doing? No I have my differences of opinion. Do I use this situation to "bash" the government of any sovereign nation? No it does nothing to help the victims of this disaster.

 

THE US GOVERNMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISASTER HAPPENING

 

That's my point here. To take this disaster and turn it into a Anti-Government bashing session does nothing to stop the victims suffering now does it?

 

 

I don't recall bashing anyone's government in this discussion either who else can say the same?

[Genesis]

I do agree with you, Elite, talking about the government doesn't help the victims. But we are talking about legal ways and means of putting an end to a complex and sad situation, in this topic. RXS asked us all to speak our mind about the martial law, so, we do reply. His ironical comment about what could people like Goo and I possibly post in this discussion tends to show that he knew we wouldn't share the same views, obviously. So, don't panic, this is normal. Nothing more than people exchanging views. We didn't turn this topic into a "anti-government bashing session", anyway. We just said we don't believe this kind of extreme solution will do any good. And why would you've bashed anyone's government in a thread that is all about actions taken by the US government??

[[FF5]Knix]

anyone remember the last time I said anything about the Dutch Govt, or the French, or anyone elses for that matter? I may have in the past...but its been quite a while.

 

I think their are double standards in society. Its ok to harp on the US Govt, as we are this MASSSSS of people. Always around, in print, on the internet, on tv, on the radio.....we're big brother...its cool. But if an American sez anything about another govt in a negative tone, we are ugly AMericans who don't understand because we are not educated enough of the goings on in the world to say a darn thing.

 

I have been to every country that any poster in this forum has posted from (cept Brazil if Girl Afraid has posted). I've been in your society. When i go to these places I talk to the people there. I ask questions, I listen. Half the people who talk the crap they do in this forum, have never come across the atlantic to see this country for themselves. They rely on RAI, the BBC, etc, or what they read in the newspapers.

 

THis is why i get pissed off when this double standard gets put into affect in these forums unabated. When was the last topic that covered a political question or societal question that did not include at some time the US government? There is an underlying bias, to say otherwise is pure blindness.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

RXS:

before Bush, there was a an eight year democratic reign that new about it too...they did nothing so stop trying to pin it all on the Bush admin....

Lies. If you'd ready any of the articles I'd linked to, you'd know that under Clinton 450 million was reserved to improve the safety situation. Under Bush this was cut to 250 million, after initially only budgeting 166 million (here are those links again: link link link link link, there's plenty of info out there if you want to see it). Many other projects relating to this since 2001 have been cut by Bush as well (see first link). Blaming Bush is not partisan, it's simply realistic.

 

THE US GOVERNMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISASTER HAPPENING

See above. Government cannot stop hurricanes, but they can certainly try to let as few people die as possible.

 

You all remember the post I made a while back about what views you admire about the other side....

 

I rehash this old post because it is a perferct example of what I'm talking about regarding your true purpose here.

And if you'd actually read it, you'd see that I made more than one post there... It's a perfect example of your inability to read and think. What's it like to be so wrong all the time? Nevermind, you'll just come up with more 'sarcasm'...

 

Half the people who talk the crap they do in this forum, have never come across the atlantic to see this country for themselves.

Been there several times. Gen too, if I remember correctly.

 

When was the last topic that covered a political question or societal question that did not include at some time the US government?

Have you checked the topics right underneath this one? There's even some about *shock* Europe.

[[FF5]Knix]

I remember your post fine goo. It was as I wrote. Link to your hearts content. What's it like to be alone with your anger on something you'll never be able to win? U can link till the end of time, but your true intentions shine through. Cover your tracks as you will, we will always be here to throw it in your face. And everytime another liberal loses an eletion, be it here or abroad, u remember us....middle finger in your digital grill .

 

 

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Didn't I tell you to go read that thread? I actually did answer your question there (post #89, Jul 11 2005, 11:12 AM, to be precise). I'm sure you'll like my answer.

[Genesis]

I remember your post fine goo. It was as I wrote. Link to your hearts content. What's it like to be alone with your anger on something you'll never be able to win? U can link till the end of time, but your true intentions shine through. Cover your tracks as you will, we will always be here to throw it in your face. And everytime another liberal loses an eletion, be it here or abroad, u remember us....middle finger in your digital grill .

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Well, this post makes your true intentions shine through as well, except that you admit that you simply don't give a truck about what other people might think. For someone who pretends to be so open-minded, speaking with and listening to people worldwide, it's quite surprizing.

[[FF5]Knix]

course i do gen, its just that with goo boy . like i always have said, he has a h--d on for putting down the US. he'll come out of a coma to post negative statements about us. the sad thing is he won't admit it. Its the same slant over and over and over and over.

[RXS]

Sonic Goo,Sep 3 2005, 10:32 AM]RXS:

Lies. If you'd ready any of the articles I'd linked to, you'd know that under Clinton 450 million was reserved to improve the safety situation. Under Bush this was cut to 250 million, after initially only budgeting 166 million (here are those links again: link link link link link, there's plenty of info out there if you want to see it). Many other projects relating to this since 2001 have been cut by Bush as well (see first link). Blaming Bush is not partisan, it's simply realistic.

 

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Don't call it a lie until you know the whole story...you can't pick and choose which facts you choose to post...if this was such a big issue why didn't Clinton solve the problem during his eight years in office? Searching for an answer? My guess is because it is a low priority. There was plenty of time to spend the money under his eight years in office...afterall, didn't he brag that he had created a budget surplus? It really begs the question why the levee improvements were not done by the Clinton Admin - after all, it's not like Clinton was dealling with anything even close to the scale of 9/11. The levees are just one of several hundred projects jockeying for money/attention. It becomes a shell game of hiding money in one budget and stealing it from another. It's all an accounting game to make yourself look great when you are leaving office by saying "I (the Democratic Party) reserved 450 Million for the levee" knowing that another Political Party is taking the reigns and will have to re balance the budget.

 

You can find examples of where Clinton cut money set aside by George H. Walker Bush too...you links hold little value to me. Put it in perspective buddy....9/11 has just happened...America is in a crisis...Levees in Louisiana are pretty low on the totem pole. You have take money from some pots and put it in others that are more critical.

[RXS]

Knix,

 

WORD!