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Marshall Law


RXS
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If any of you have been watching the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina unfold on "tragedy TV", you've probably seen footage on the looting, reports of violence, rape, shootings and general anarchy. One of the criticisms covered by the media is that there is no true leadership orchestrating relief groups. Another is that acts of anarchy is preventing relief groups from doing their jobs effectively.

 

Here's the scenario: You've just been appointed by the President of the US to go in and restore order so that relief groups can do their job.

 

How do you do it?

 

 

 

My solution is probably not a popular one, but I'll tell you anyways. I would institute Martial Law with the following special instructions given to the National Guard. Anyone seen coming out of a store with anything other than food is shot on site. Anyone seen brandishing a gun in public or shooting a gun at others is shot on site. Anyone caught looting or stealing items from a residential household is shot on site. Anyone molesting a hospital or emergency care station is shot on site. No questions asked. Martial Law is lifted once peace and order is restored. Extreme? Maybe. Effective? Absolutely.

 

 

 

Lets here how you would restore order...(liberals - feel free to mention the pass out hugs solution laugh.gif )

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You mean, like the owner? It's exactly the kind of triggerhappy, aggressive, no questions asked attitude that's causing this kind of thing.

13909[/snapback]

Yepp, like the owner. There are greater issues going on...

 

not sure I understand the second part of your statement.

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Sounds like your getting the war you're asking for:

 

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/new...13.5lgwn2uc.php

 

Iraq-tested soldiers in New Orleans with shoot to kill orders

 

A detachment of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops landed in anarchic New Orleans on Thursday, with the authorization to shoot and kill "hoodlums" Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said.

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," said Blanco.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well trained, experienced, battle tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets," Blanco said.

"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded.

"These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will," said Blanco.

 

What I meant by the second part is that the exact mentality you're portraying there is the same mentality that causes those people to do those things. A total lack of empathy and completely deprived of any sense of justice.

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Goo, what do you propose should be done to stop the 'hoodlums' (criminals, deadbeats, scumbags of the earth) from shooting at those who are trying to come in and save people still trapped or needing help? Because of them, helicopters cannot land with supplies or to remove people in need from the overfilled hospitals. The military HAS to come in, the local police cannot handle this.

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My concern here is what looters we are speaking of. If you have people stealing jewelery, or televisions (non-essentinal items) then that is stealing, and people should protect their property. However A mother or Father left without food or water or a change of clothes, who take some of these items, I cannot justify in this specific situation as being a "looter", as they very likely are trying to keep their family alive.

 

 

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Hmmm... let's see.. how about the way hoodlums are normally handled? How about securing the place properly in the first place?

 

Have you ever seen this kind of thing happening at disasters elsewhere in the world? At this scale? Maybe you should ask yourself why exactly it's happening here...

 

(And before you ask, yes, I prefer dealing with causes rather than consequences.)

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I do agree that this kind of exceptionnal situation would completely justify the army getting involved. But Marshall law... err... experimented soldiers are in Iraq, at least most of them. Those who'd be sent as reinforcements might be newbies, and there is a risk they would make big mistakes if they are confronted to unexpected situations. Let's imagine some young soldier, face-to-face with a shop owner holding a gun because looters are wandering his side of town. I'd bet $50 on the soldier's M-16 or M-4, and absolutely nothing on the owner's shotgun. The kind of misunderstanding that can take someone's life in a few seconds...

 

(edit)

 

Yeah Goo, that's a good point. Let's not forget that Louisiana is the poorest State of the USA. Many young people are unemployed, and criminality has always been a big issue there. If you wanna visit the city, you'd better know which is the safe side of the street, and which is not. We're back to one of our old debates. Why spend so much money in the rest of the world to "rebuild" countries while many places in the US would need some help?

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Contraire! There is a justice system with the Martial Law and it is quite simple - the consequences of looting, murdering, rape, etc is to be shot on site. Being shot on site is the admisitration of justice for the actions of the unjust durring dire times. Lets not make these hoodlums out to be the victims. They are preying on those who cannot defend themselves - that is, in part, why extreme measures must be taken to ensure justice is served. I have a tough time finding empathy in this cold, black heart of mine when I watch gangs of thugs beating the shite out of innocent people huddling together, or when I see reports of all the rapes, the shootings, the lootings, etc. Lets have some empathy for the true victims and bring this situation under control.

 

I have watched a lot of footage of cops being shot at and cops trying in vane to stop these lawless animals - only to no avail. Normal methods for restoreing law and order are not working...giving out hugs is not working...time to step it up a notch.

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Why there? That's pretty easy. New Orleans, while a lovely city with many positive points, has also always been considered a place of low morals and where the sins of the flesh are openly embraced. It's second only to Las Vegas. Add to that a city government that never created any disaster plans for this kind of a situation (stupidity comes to mind) resulting in no control when it happens and you have mass chaos and freedom to do any crime you desire without fear of consequences.

 

On the stealing of food issue, that has not been a problem. It's been understood for days that all food is free to take. I've seen images of the national guard allowing it. It's the stealing of non-essentials that has to be stopped. That is only being done in greed, not to keep a family alive.

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Knix,Sep 2 2005, 08:42 AM]My concern here is what looters we are speaking of. If you have people stealing jewelery, or televisions (non-essentinal items) then that is stealing, and people should protect their property. However A mother or Father left without food or water or a change of clothes, who take some of these items, I cannot justify in this specific situation as being a "looter", as they very likely are trying to keep their family alive.

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I mentioned in my original post that anyone looting anything other than food or water is dealt with accordingly...I doubt they would shoot someone for carrying a box of diapers out of a store laugh.gif

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So RXS, your solution is to nuke the problems once the situation got out of hand? Why not do something before? Why let the society make people criminals, if it's only to allow police forces to shoot them "on site" later? And, how would you recognize a hoodlum from a honest citizen trying to defend his property, tell me, if you don't have to bother ask him what he's doing there?

 

As a reply to Bella's post, I'd add that re-creating the bayous that used to slow down storms is something the state of Louisiana asked the congress many times. They've been destroyed by (mainly) texan companies that installed oil pumps in every corner of the state. Scientists have spent years warning the government that a big tropical storm or hurricane would blast away half of the Mississipi delta within a few minutes. How much would it cost? Oh, about what the US government has spent this year in Iraq...

 

link about the potential complete destruction of the Louisiana bayous

 

Another link

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So RXS, your solution is to nuke the problems once the situation got out of hand? Why not do something before? Why let the society make people criminals, if it's only to allow police forces to shoot them "on site" later? And, how would you recognize a hoodlum from a honest citizen trying to defend his property, tell me, if you don't have to bother ask him what he's doing there?

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What the hell are you talking about? Nuking the problem - you're sick. Yeah, hind site is 20/20....but bitching about what we could have done does nothing to solve the problem at hand.

 

Who gives a shite about defending your personal property? Let the thugs take it...it's not worth your life. If your remember from the original post, brandishing firearms and shooting in public is forbidden. If the shop owner is in his shop, on his property, and feels that confrontation with the thugs is worth it, more power to him. Again, as I stated earlier, this is how I would handle it. If you know a better way to handle it, pony up your idea.

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RXS:

Great. Now imagine one of those 'animals' to be your son, brother or nephew. You still want them to get shot on site?

If you think justice is the same as shoot first, ask questions later, you really need to go back to school.

doubt they would shoot someone for carrying a box of diapers out of a store

note to looters: hide that tv in diaper boxes

 

Bella:

Sins of the flesh cause people to become violent? Care to elaborate? I'd say a combination of severe poverty and lots of firearms would combine to give people both the motive and the means to lash out and take what they want. The desperation caused by this disaster would be just the kind of thing that pushes someone over the edge.

It's the stealing of non-essentials that has to be stopped. That is only being done in greed, not to keep a family alive.

It's not that simple. For a family that's already poor, that has lost everything they have including the roof over their head, a luxury product could also mean keeping the family alive - just a bit longer than a few hours.

 

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Personal property is not worth your life, but you don't live in the poorest of the United States, in a society that keeps on telling you that owning things IS being someone... And how, in a case of emergency, maybe at night, would a soldier be able to tell if someone is walking away with luxury products or food and water? If they wish to take the time to search peoples' "possessions", and find some luxury product, are they still supposed to shoot people on site?

 

"Hmm, sorry sir, you offered no resistance, I searched your cart, I could put you in jail now that you mention it, but I'd really rather shoot you on site, if you don't mind."

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Ahhh, the gloves come off eh Goo? I've yet to hear how you would handle this. Remember, time is of the essence. People are still dieing while you pass out your hugs and tell them they are victims of society.

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Watch out, Goo, as if what Bella said is true (pleasures of the flesh causing people to be more violent), I wouldn't wanna live in Amsterdam the day it'll get flooded. laugh.gif And thanks for clarifying my idea, by the way. smile.gif

 

People are still dieing while you pass out your hugs and tell them they are victims of society.

 

How funny! People are still dieing while you're sitting at your desk, posting interesting ideas about how to make a little more victims.

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Please put that straw man back where it belongs.

 

I'd advocate getting the police system back on its feet - it seems to have completely desintegrated in NO. If you'd want to use the National Guard per se - use them for that - assisting the police in their work, setting up communications, giving them the means to go out, patrol and help people, giving them some manpower to back them up, etc. etc.

 

The aim is to restore order, to make things calm down. Not to escalate. Do you really think it ends when you shoot a hoodlum? How do you think the family of that dead guy will respond? Hint: they're probably poor, armed, desperate and have recently been seriously let down by their government.

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Watch out, Goo, as if what Bella said is true (pleasures of the flesh causing people to be more violent), I wouldn't wanna live in Amsterdam the day it'll get flooded. laugh.gif And thanks for clarifying my idea, by the way. smile.gif

 

People are still dieing while you pass out your hugs and tell them they are victims of society.

 

How funny! People are still dieing while you're sitting at your desk, posting interesting ideas about how to make a little more victims.

13962[/snapback]

 

 

You've got to be kidding. Do you not understand that these hoodlums are hampering relief efforts? That when helicopters cannot land to drop off medical supplies, or evacuate ICU patients that innocent people die. It's amazint that you would consider the hoodlums as victims. Maybe we should call them freedom fighters who are protecting their way of life.

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You've got to be kidding.  Do you not understand that these hoodlums are hampering relief efforts?  That when helicopters cannot land to drop off medical supplies, or evacuate ICU patients that innocent people die.  It's amazint that you would consider the hoodlums as victims.  Maybe we should call them freedom fighters who are protecting their way of life.

13965[/snapback]

 

Ayup, the whole point is, under Marshall law, how do you tell the difference between a victim and a hoodlum, as I said above? The normal law already allows policemen to defend themselves if they're shot at. No need for the Marshall law under these particular circumstances. But people who invest medical supllies stores, are they here to find supplies, or just to prevent helicopters from landing because it's fun? After all, shoot one or two of them, God will sort them out.

 

You got the picture? Your city is flooded, you might have lost one or more people you loved, you need medical care, get to a drugstore or hospital along with hundreds of people, and suddenly, some young policeman shoots you because he thought you were stealing morphine as a replacement for that crack fix you couldn't get today. That really sucks, eh?

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Sonice Goo wrote-

If you think justice is the same as shoot first, ask questions later, you really need to go back to school.

 

Sonic Goo then wrote-

Please put that straw man back where it belongs.

 

 

Straw man fallacy Goo is refering too.

 

Person A has position X.

Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).

Person B attacks position Y.

Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

 

 

Knix writes- Pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (breathes) pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

 

 

 

 

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