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Jacques
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Does anyone know how long EPO remains detectable? If longer than two years, it should have showed up in the 2001 tests as well.

 

edit: nevermind, it's three days/two to three weeks depending on the test

 

Also, they did measure the hematocrit values then (this says since 1997, Wikipedia says 1998) and he seems to have passed that. Though, there are stories of masking substances...

 

(btw I can't wait for the flamewar this will cause... blink.gif )

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his blood has been freezed.

 

There are 2 cases :

 

=> The EPO disappear and he doesn't have anymore EPO in his blood

 

=> The EPO stays like this and also his blood keeps having EPO

 

Anyway the EPO can't be created like this tongue.gif

For Armstrong we are in the 2nd case.

 

The dectetion has changed before it was calculated with hematocrit and now they can detect the EPO. secret.gif

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Guest AngelEyes

Achilles - The most legendary warrior

 

Johan Cruijf - The most legendary soccer player

 

Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander - Greatest generals ever

 

AngelEyes, Azazel, - Greatest nolfers ever tongue.gif

 

Armstrong, Fausto (some others i dont know the name of) , - greatest cyclers ever

 

Hugh Heffner, - Biggest playah

 

SonicGoo, - Greatest trying-to-make-america-look-bad-with-french-lies idiot ever

 

 

 

 

Those who are on this list may congratulate themselves.... Alot of people in this world know you for a certain thing you did in the past... BE PROUD OF IT~~~~~

 

 

Mensen zoals jij die altijd zeuren ,zaniken ,altijd met de roddelpers meelopen en altijd het bewijs (wat met gemak gefaked kan worden) opstapelen, maken me moe en vragen me vaak af waarom ik niet uit Nederland verhuis. huh.gif

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You forgot a certain Eddy Merckx...

 

Care to elaborate on that last one?

 

Ten eerste kun je wat ik geschreven heb grotendeels zien als een verdediging van Armstrong. Ik probeer juist kleinzielig geschreeuw en gescheld te voorkomen door me tot de feiten te beperken. Ik heb me niet voor of tegen wie dan ook uitgesproken.

Ten tweede is L'Equipe niet echt de roddelpers. En ze hebben behoorlijk goede bronnen in het fietswereldje. De Tour de France is namelijk het fietstochtje van L'Equipe.

En ten derde, waar moet men dan vanuit gaan als niet van de feiten? Jouw mening? En waarom zou die zwaarder tellen dan elke andere willekeurige mening?

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You forgot a certain Eddy Merckx - bigger than Armstrong (because greatness it not just about the Tour)

 

Bigger then Armstrong becausseeeeeee?

 

Greatness is not just about the Tour De France becaussssssseeeeee?

 

 

Eddy Merckx was a fantastic cyclist no doubt. He however did not come back from testical cancer then went into his brain, and go on to win 7 STRAIGHT Tour de France, plus other titles such as the...

 

Tour de Switzerland

Tour de Luxumbourg

Tour Dupont

Tour of America

AND the Eddy Merkyx Classic smile.gif.

 

 

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Lance Armstrong chooses one race, the Tour, and focuses on that. All his other victories were just part of his preparation for that. Testing his form. Merckx, on the other hand, drove everything and won everything. The big tours, the classics, everything. You'd never see Armstrong on the dusty/slippery (it's always something) cobblestones in Northern France in the early spring. Much too dangerous.

 

It's like comparing a racing driver who shows up for Formula 1, Indy 500, Touringcars, Le Mans, Rallys, etc. and wins everything to another racing driver who sticks to his own series and wins a lot.

 

Palmares EddyMerckx

 

Grand Tours

5x Tour de France

5x Giro d'Italia

1x Vuelta a España

 

Other tours

1x Tour de Suisse

2x Ronde van België/Tour de Belgique

 

Classic cycle races

7x Milan-San Remo

5x Liège-Bastogne-Liège

3x Paris-Roubaix

2x Giro di Lombardia

2x Tour of Flanders

 

World titles

4x World Championships

 

Track races

17 six-day races

 

Palmares Lance Armstrong

 

Grand Tours

7x Tour de France

 

Other Tours

1x Tour de Suisse

1x Tour de Luxembourg

 

Classic cycle races

1x Classica San Sebastian

1x La Fleche Wallonne

 

World titles

1x World Championship

 

Olympics

Bronze medal time trial Summer Olympics 2000

 

See the difference?

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Greatest trying-to-make-america-look-bad-with-french-lies idiot ever

 

AE, you should also avoid bashing other people with no reason, since both points of view including Goo's, in all the serious discussions we had, were backed up by good points. That also is in the rules, not to mention that the French Republic, the whole French Nation and myself would gladly throw up on your shoes after a beer-drinking contest.

 

(Oh, Jacques says he would like to participate too smile.gif )

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Tour De France has been for over 50+ years the measure of greatness in Cycling. As I mentioned Eddy Merkx was a fantastic Cyclist, however no other rider has ever won 7 connsecutive Tour de France victories (no one has ever won 6 consecutive for that matter). I think its fair to say that Lance Armstrong lost a good 3 years of cycling due to his cancer, and that he could have added to the tally that you indicated.

 

The underlying feeling I get again (and this is of course just my feeling, with me not able to add and links for substantiation), is that the French press has a case of sour grapes that an American has dominated their sacred event as Lance has. You were not hearing the same kind of accusations when Miguel Indurain was winning 5 Tour's in a row back in the mid 80's.

 

This is surprising to me, as Lance took the time to live in France, and embrace the culture (and language which he learned). So its not like he is coming off as the "ugly American".

 

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. I think its fair to say that Lance Armstrong lost a good 3 years of cycling due to his cancer, and that he could have added to the tally that you indicated.

 

1st error.

 

Before his cancer Lance Armstrong was a good rider, he became the youngest world champion and won some classics as you wrote :

1x Classica San Sebastian

1x La Fleche Wallonne

But He never did anything for tours ... Without his cancer he would never been a tour rider.

 

that the French press has a case of sour grapes that an American has dominated their sacred event as Lance has.

 

No, the french press has nothing against him.

While his last succeed every news papers were saying "good bye, lance" "great champion" ...

 

This is surprising to me, as Lance took the time to live in France, and embrace the culture (and language which he learned). So its not like he is coming off as the "ugly American".

 

No, Armstrong moved to Spain for long time, speaks few word in french ... he never has been nice and smile for 6 years, he has just been friendly while his last tour. Moreover Frenchs were the 1st to say "Go Lance" this year .

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Yeah, as Jacques said, Armstrong has always been very popular in France, and it was a real pleasure for most of the people here to see him win. Only a few other cyclists can say they were supported by the french public as much as Armstrong, and for such a long time. Maybe only a few french champions like Hinault, back in the 80's or Virenque more recently (and it's a sure thing that Virenque cheated).

 

What Jacques stated about Armstrong's behaviour is true, he's one of the very few cyclists who never made any effort to at least be able to say a few words in french, even on the podium on the last day of the Tour - which is a kind of "tradition". I think I never saw him speak french at all (at least not this year) but I may be wrong. Anyway, no-one ever saw him as "the ugly american", and I do respect him as a very gifted champion. I hope these accusations are BS, that's all. If it's true, well, I'd be really sad. However, I won't believe it until someone shows solid proofs. One would be really stupid to cheat during SO many years while hoping not to get caught, no?

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I stand corrected....

 

Lance no parlez Francais

 

Unlike many Americans who race in Europe, Lance Armstrong has made little effort to blend in with the local culture. Despite living several seasons in Nice, France, Armstrong speaks very little French.

When French TV asks Armstrong questions in French, Armstrong almost always answers in English. And that really grates the French.

 

"If he at least tried to speak French I am certain he would gain in popularity among the French people," said Tour de France director general Jean-Marie Leblanc.

 

Three-time Tour winner Greg Lemond, however, remains very popular among the French public. He was the first American to ingratiate himself into the European cycling culture in the 1980s. Lemond always raced with French and Belgian teams and quickly became fluent in French.

 

Armstrong, however, has spent most of his career on American teams. He raced with Motorola in the early 1990s and signed with the French Cofidis team at the end of the 1996 season just before he was diagnosed with cancer but never rode with the team. He since joined the U.S. Postal Service team in 1998

 

 

But he did live in France! so its 1-1 . tongue.gif

 

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Sorry for the Double post but....

 

 

NEW YORK (AP) -- -- Lance Armstrong went on the offensive Wednesday, saying it was "preposterous" for the Tour de France director to suggest the legendary cyclist "fooled" race officials and the sporting world by doping.

 

Comments by Tour director Jean-Marie Leblanc appeared in the French sports daily L'Equipe on Wednesday, a day after the newspaper reported that six urine samples provided by Armstrong during the first of his seven Tour championships in 1999 tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO.

 

"I actually spoke to him for about 30 minutes and he didn't say any of that stuff to me personally," Armstrong said, referring to Leblanc.

 

"But to say that I've fooled the fans is preposterous. I've been doing this a long time. We have not just one year of only 'B' samples; we have seven years of 'A' and 'B' samples. They've all been negative," he said during a conference call from Washington.

 

In his comments to L'Equipe, Leblanc sounded convinced that Armstrong was guilty of doping, saying the onus was on him to explain the newspaper's findings.

 

"For the first time -- and these are no longer rumors, or insinuations, these are proven scientific facts -- someone has shown me that in 1999, Armstrong had a banned substance called EPO in his body," Leblanc told the newspaper.

 

"The ball is now in his court. Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the tour. Today, what L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."

 

The Tour did not respond Wednesday to a request by The Associated Press to interview Leblanc.

 

The tour director was hardly the only target of Armstrong's ire Wednesday. He also questioned the validity of the science involved in testing samples that were frozen seven years ago and how those samples were handled since. He also charged officials at the suburban Paris laboratory that processed them with violating the World Anti-Doping Agency code by releasing the results to the newspaper.

 

"It doesn't surprise me at all that they have samples. Clearly they've tested all of my samples since then to the highest degree. But when I gave those samples," he said, referring to 1999, "there was not EPO in those samples. I guarantee that."

 

Fellow cyclists came to Armstrong's defense Wednesday.

 

"Armstrong always told me that he never used doping products," five-time winner Eddy Merckx told Le Monde newspaper. "Choosing between a journalist and Lance's word, I trust Armstrong."

 

L'Equipe is owned by the Amaury Group whose subsidiary, Amaury Sport Organization, organizes the Tour de France and other sporting events. The paper has often raised questions about whether Armstrong has ever used performance enhancing drugs. On Tuesday, the banner headline of its four-page report was "The Armstrong Lie."

 

EPO, formally known as erythropoietin, was on the list of banned substances at the time Armstrong won the first of his seven Tours, but there was no effective test then to detect it.

 

The allegations took six years to surface because EPO tests on the 1999 samples were carried out only last year -- when scientists at the national doping test lab outside Paris opened them up again for research to perfect EPO screening, with the blessing of the World Anti-Doping Agency.

 

Another five-time Tour champion, Miguel Indurain, said he couldn't understand why scientists would use samples from the '99 Tour for their tests.

 

"I feel the news is in bad taste and out of place, given that it happened six years ago after his first Tour victory, and after he won six more," Indurain wrote in the Spanish sports daily Marca. "With the little I have to go on, it is difficult to take a position, but I think at this stage there's no sense in stirring all this up."

 

Jan Ullrich, the 1997 Tour champion, said he did not have all the details and did not want to be too quick to judge.

 

"But clearly I would be very disappointed if the story were true," he wrote on his Web site.

 

L'Equipe's investigation was based on the second set of two samples used in doping tests. The first set were used up in 1999 for analysis at the time. Without that first set of samples, any disciplinary action against Armstrong would be impossible, French Sports Minister Jean-Francois Lamour said.

 

Lamour said he had doubts about L'Equipe's report because he had not seen the originals of some of the documents that appeared in the paper.

 

"I do not confirm it," he told RTL radio. But he added: "If what L'Equipe says is true, I can tell you that it's a serious blow for cycling."

 

The International Cycling Union did not begin using a urine test for EPO until 2001. For years, it had been impossible to detect the drug, which builds endurance by boosting the production of oxygen-rich red blood cells.

 

Jacques de Ceaurriz, the head of France's anti-doping laboratory, which developed the EPO urine test, told Europe-1 radio that at least 15 urine samples from the 1999 Tour had tested positive for EPO. The year before, there were more than 40 positive samples, he said -- reflecting how widespread the drug was when riders thought they could not be caught.

 

The lab said it could not confirm that the positive results cited in L'Equipe were Armstrong's. It noted that the samples were anonymous, bearing only a six-digit number to identify the rider, and could not be matched with any one cyclist.

 

However, L'Equipe said it was able to confirm the samples were Armstrong's by matching the cyclist's medical certificates with the results of positive doping tests bearing the same sample numbers.

 

Armstrong has insisted throughout his career that he has never taken drugs to enhance his performance. In his autobiography, "It's Not About the Bike," he said he was administered EPO during his chemotherapy treatment to battle cancer.

 

"It was the only thing that kept me alive," he wrote.

 

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It's well known that Armstrong has dispensation to use forbidden products due to his cancer. It's a very understandable policy, of course. It also goes for other diseases, as long as it's confirmed that you actually are ill and need that particular drug. But it's also understandable that other people who are very strictly tested on those drugs look at it a bit strangely.

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Call this the boring perspective if you must, but I think we can all agree that both Eddie Merkcx and Lance Armstrong were/are awesome athletes - and although l'Equipe sees it fit to do so I've yet to see anyone here unambiguously agree with that.

 

I guess it's like MJ's trial - the world would just make less sense if he really had done it. I hope and think Lance is clean. (On the topic of the MJ trial: Jackson's Accuser's Mom Charged With Fraud)

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Lance Armstong interviewed by Larry King...

 

'This thing stinks'

'Slimy' French journalism nothing new, cyclist says

 

Friday, August 26, 2005; Posted: 9:49 a.m. EDT (13:49 GMT)

 

 

Armstrong questions the science behind testing years-old samples, with no controls in place.

 

 

 

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Lance Armstrong remained steadfast Thursday that he has never used performance-enhancing drugs, and he called a French newspaper's allegations that he used a banned substance in 1999 -- when he won the first of seven Tour de France titles -- "preposterous."

 

"This thing stinks," Armstrong told CNN's "Larry King Live" in his first television interview since the allegations were made. "I've said it for longer than seven years: I have never doped. I can say it again. But I've said it for seven years; it doesn't help. But the fact of the matter is I haven't (doped)."

 

Armstrong, a cancer survivor, added: "If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."

 

Armstrong said he has dealt with "slimy" journalism from the French for the last seven years and "this is perhaps the worst of it." (Watch exclusive video of Armstrong recounting the journalist's phone call.)

 

The allegations emerged Tuesday when a French daily sports newspaper, L'Equipe, reported that a four-month investigation found that six of Armstrong's urine samples given during the 1999 race tested positive for the red-cell booster EPO. The article was headlined: "The Armstrong Lie."

 

Armstrong noted that earlier this year, when he announced his retirement, that the same paper wrote, "Never has an athlete's retirement been so welcome."

 

He blasted critics who have said the evidence is clear, insisting it is nothing more than a case of he-said, she-said.

 

"What else can it be?" Armstrong said. "Do you think I'm going to trust some guy in a French lab to open my samples and say they're positive and announce that to the world and not give me the chance to defend myself? That's ludicrous. There is no way you can do that."

 

Armstrong -- who survived testicular cancer that spread through his body and into his brain to become the greatest cyclist in the sport's history -- said he did use EPO as part of his chemotherapy treatment in late 1996, but never as part of his cycling training regimen.

 

EPO is a drug that boosts red blood cell counts, allowing endurance athletes to increase their oxygen-carrying capacity to enable them to go farther and faster. It is often given to patients suffering from blood-related cancers and other forms of the disease.

 

Armstrong also questioned the science behind years-old samples. He said he had provided a total of 17 "B" samples in 1999.

 

"So why are six of them positive and the other 11 aren't? I'm saying there were 17 samples. So, if the drug would stay around for two, three, four weeks, we have 17 samples given, and only six of them positive. What happened to the other 11?"

 

Earlier in the day, organizers of the Tour de France said they remained shocked by the latest allegations.

 

"The Tour de France believes that the results of the lab are 100 percent reliable. It's the best lab and a lab known for doing such testing," Matthieu Desplates, a press attache for the Tour de France, told CNN in a phone interview.

 

When organizers learned of the report, Desplates said, "Everyone felt betrayed."

 

If the allegations do indeed prove to be true, he added, "Armstrong looked into people's eyes and lied."

 

L'Equipe's investigation was based on the second set of samples, called "B" samples, provided during the drug-testing procedure in 1999. The "A" samples no longer exist and Tour officials have said they cannot enforce any punishment without them.

 

According to the paper, the allegations took six years to surface because EPO was undetectable in the 1999 tests. Last year, the French laboratory at Chatenay-Malabry -- one of the best in the world -- began conducting experiments to improve its banned-substance detection capabilities, according to L'Equipe.

 

The lab conducted its tests randomly on anonymous samples, with only six-digit numbers to identify the riders. L'Equipe said it was able to confirm the positive tests were Armstrong's by matching his medical certificates with the numbers on the samples. Another 15 samples from other riders from the 1999 race also have reportedly tested positive.

 

Armstrong blasted the protocol used in the testing, saying how was he to trust a French person in a laboratory where no one else was present to observe the testing method.

 

"If you considered the science, if you consider the protocol involved in drug testing, if you consider the standards that have been set over dozens of years, you know that none of that was followed here," he told CNN.

 

"Since when did newspapers start governing sports?"

 

Armstrong also had harsh words for Jean-Marie Leblanc, the director of the Tour de France, who told L'Equipe the Tour was "fooled" by Armstrong.

 

"For Jean-Marie to say that was a shock to me," Armstrong said. "I actually spoke to him that very same day for about 30 minutes on the telephone. I called him at his house in Paris and he didn't say any of those things to me. In fact, he was just sort of hemmed and hawed and said, 'I'm surprised.' I said, 'Yes, I'm surprised, too. I think we're all surprised.'"

 

In his remarks to L'Equipe, Leblanc said, "The Tour is shocked. ... I am among those who took into account his physical and psychological transformation after his cancer. I thought that the morphology and the character could explain Armstrong's performance. For 1999, we were fooled."

 

Jan Ullrich, the 1997 Tour champion and an Armstrong rival, responded to the allegations by saying: "For the moment, we don't have all the necessary and exact information, which is why I don't want to rush to any hasty conclusions. But it's clear that I would be very disappointed if the information in the article is confirmed."

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry for the double post, but I was just sent this e-mail by my Brother-in-Law...

 

The Associated Press Friday, August 5, 2005; 11:00 PM PARIS, France --

 

Lance Armstrong's record setting seventh Tour de France victory, along with his

entire Tour de France legacy, may be tarnished by what could turn out to be one

of the greatest sports scandals of all time. Armstrong is being quizzed by

French police after three banned substances were found in his South France

hotel room while on vacation after winning the 2005 Tour de France.

 

The three substances found were toothpaste, deodorant, and soap, which have

been banned by French authorities for over 75 years. Armstrong's girlfriend

and American rocker Sheryl Crowe is quoted as saying "we use them every day in

America, so we naturally thought they'd be ok throughout Europe."

 

Along with these three banned substances, French authorities also physically

searched Armstrong himself and found several other interesting items that they

have never seen before, including a backbone and testicles.

 

 

 

:P

 

 

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