Possible change to the first Amendment?

[daybreak]

Genesis-I am an American and I live in Southern California...Also, I must respectfully state that I don't agree with the points brought up by RXS. Exaggeration or not, I think Genesis has been pretty dead on in his descriptions about the US. You have to understand that this isn't a competition. Genesis is approaching these problems from a sociological perspective in that he thinks it's important to find ways to help people and he also notes emphatically that our government has a profound effect on the rest of the world-don't knock him because he is in France, he has a stake in this as well. There are indeed devastated industrial towns in the Midwest and our current economy is doing rather poorly to put it mildly. Bush asked everyone to 'sacrifice' after 9/11 and for the war in Iraq, but what did we sacrifice??? He told us to go shopping!!! And then he cut taxes (which is a first in a wartime situation if I'm not mistaken). When Genesis says that he dislikes our government and not us, why won't you believe him.

[RXS]

Genesis-I am an American and I live in Southern Washington...Also, I must respectfully state that I don't agree with the points brought up by Daybreak.

 

What points brought up by RXS? I never knocked him for being from France...don't put words in my mouth buddy. When are you guys going to get it? A town (location is of little matter) cannot exist forever and have a booming economy if there is no industry. Whether it is agricultural, mining, tourism, construction, what have you. When a mine closes, or a steel mill closes, or crops dry up from lack of rain, etc....the local town suffers. Is it up to the government to pump money back into it? Must we turn to the government to solve all our problems? For every small town you can identify as being devastated, I can point to several that aren't. If Gen and any of the other Euros who hold similar opinions are so concerned about these devastated towns in the midwest, why don't we ever receive any aid from them? When the US is hit with Tornados, Hurricanes, (or this is a good one) Wild Fires that devastate the Western US, where are they then? Oh yes, I remember, reminding us how we are not giving enough relief to Tsunami victims or whatever the latest fad is. Speaking of Tsunami - I work for a European company that asked all of its employees to donate (20,000 of us in the US). Most of us donated a considerable amount but the funny part is, our donations were counted as being from the European country where our headquarters are at (because they matched our funds) and not from the US. I wonder if this has happened to others.

 

As far as the shopping and tax break comment...it was to jump start the sluggish economy that was caused by 9/11. You should know that.

 

Sacrifice? Well, lets just say that it doesn't have to be money or object related. I know of several families that have had to sacrifice being without a dad, or a dad being away from his family because he was called to serve. Maybe an employer makes a sacrifice when some of his workers are called to serve. Need I say more?

 

This is getting way off topic...lets zero back in and get it back on track.

[daybreak]

When I said "don't knock him because he is in France", I actually meant 'not in the US', not France specifically-I wasn't going 'there'. I find it interesting that you discuss 'natural' reasons for town drying up here and there. I haven't heard anything about Wal-Mart and their practices or 'outsourcing' or any other economic blunder our government has made.

[RXS]

Well, I'm not in favor of outsourcing...but I'm not sure how that is connected to our government. Typically a company will outsource to remain competitive in the marketplace. Nearly every business throughout the world practices this to some degree (it's tough to remain competitive when your competition pays labor wages that are around 1/25 of yours).

 

I'm sure you know something about this that I do not so please explain/educate.

[Genesis]

Daybreak, thanks for your post - and support - once more.

 

RXS, no problem, I know you never really "knocked me for being French", but, as Daybreak said, you clearly discussed my right to talk about your country because I don't live there. Your comment about us, people who "are so concerned about these devastated towns in the midwest", and "remind (you) how (you) are not giving enough relief to Tsunami victims" is very funny. I never said US the had not given enough. Here is a quote from one of my posts above, you must have missed it:

 

Because European countries have no lesson to give in aiding poor countries. We all still have much to do. Oh, and I have never heard about any kind of negative reaction to US actions after the tsunami.

 

This comment is the funniest, by far:

 

If Gen and any of the other Euros who hold similar opinions are so concerned about these devastated towns in the midwest, why don't we ever receive any aid from them?

 

I'm sorry, but since I carefully read your posts above, I thought everything was alright in the US, damn! I thought it was a normal situation! And now you say that we should help you deal with a problem which, for you, simply doesn't exist? So WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? You just needed to say something negative, eh? OK, I'll ask EliteOne to devote some of my donations to the reconstruction of the US.

 

Alright, I stated my position - we were talking about burning flags, originally - I'm out for the week-end. See you, guys.

[RXS]

I'm sorry, but since I carefully read your posts above, I thought everything was alright in the US, damn! I thought it was a normal situation! And now you say that we should help you deal with a problem which, for you, simply doesn't exist? So WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? You just needed to say something negative, eh? OK, I'll ask EliteOne to devote some of my donations to the reconstruction of the US.

 

I'm sorry, you must have missed my post where I conceded that there are some struggling towns in the US...I said it here:

 

Isn't that pretty much what I just said? A change in industry can leave a local economy nearly dead as there is no influx of money to shore it up.

and here:

Are there some local economies that struggle? Sure, same as anywhere.

 

I never said everything in the US was alright. Like any other country in the world, we have our fair share of domestic problems.

 

 

Sonic Goo,Jul 1 2005, 03:35 AM]As for paying: How does US foreign aid compare to the rest of the developed world by percentage of Gross National Income (GNI)? (note: Bush has recently promised the US will double aid to Africa, though at the same time his previous initiative is being cut down by the Senate.)

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I think this is a little misleading in some respects as it accounts for only the public sector. The private sector in the US contributes millions and millions to foreign aid as well. Also, I wonder what the total dollar volume is by country...comparing it to GNI is fine, but how about a break down by total dollar volume (public, private or both)?

[Genesis]

Sorry, RXS, my bad, then. Thanks for clarifying things a bit.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

I think this is a little misleading in some respects as it accounts for only the public sector. The private sector in the US contributes millions and millions to foreign aid as well. Also, I wonder what the total dollar volume is by country...comparing it to GNI is fine, but how about a break down by total dollar volume (public, private or both)?

 

It's not really fair to compare smaller entities with smaller economies to the biggest economy in the world. Shouldn't the strongest shoulders bear the biggest load? Anyway, France, the UK and the Netherlands alone spend more on aid then the US, let alone the rest of Europe (FR+UK+NL=20,546 billion, US=18,999 billion - derived from the graph here).

 

Do you think the European private sector doesn't donate? It's hard to find any data on private donations. Though it is known that US private donations are bigger than public donations, it's hard to measure quality and quantity. When taking other factors into consideration as well, you get this chart. When you take the estimate for private US aid, add it to public US aid and then subtract public EU aid (at least the countries mentioned in the charts) that leaves 6,5 billion in private donations needed to top the US. I would guess it's higher than that.

 

(As for tsunami aid, there's a chart here - I think EC donations are seperate from individual countries, so to compare they should be added up. There's also a chart for aid per capita.)

 

 

Eh... for those who want to get back to that flag thing: does anyone know how many countries there are where you have to pledge allegiance to the flag? And which countries those are? (a quick Google seems to suggest there aren't any)

[{GD}Independent]

As for paying: How does US foreign aid compare to the rest of the developed world by percentage of Gross National Income (GNI)? (note: Bush has recently promised the US will double aid to Africa, though at the same time his previous initiative is being cut down by the Senate.)

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This chart is also instructive. http://www.globalpartnerships.org/globalpo...assistgraph.htm

 

Your chart shows that, by one measure, the US is seven tenths of one percent behind the leader, Denmark. My chart shows that, by another measure, the US is nine hundred and three percent ahead of Denmark. If you were on the receiving end of this giving, would you care that the US gave .14 percent of our GNP versus Denmark's .84, or would you care more about the US giving $15,791,000,000,000 (yes, that's nearly 16 trillion dollars) versus Denmark's 1.7 trillion dollars?

[[FF5]Knix]

I read where "the world" wants the US to give 1pct (or so) of our GNP in $$$ to Africa. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FRIGGEN MINDS? We don't need to give a red "bleeping" cent. Is this a contest? God this stuff is nauseating. We have built up nations that were destroyed after WW2 with the Marshall plan worth Billions of Dollars in days currency. Its never enough.

 

Shouldn't the strongest shoulders bear the biggest load?

 

No they shouldn't we don't have to bear any load. If we would merge together and quit wanking around, and remove the leaders of these impoverished nations from office, THEN we don't have to keep throwing bad money after bad money. But noooooooo then we would interfering with a country's noble sovereignty! God forbid! Better they starve their own people, tear down their homes, and make them flee to other lands, lest we actually take action that might be looked upon as imperialistic!

 

Where has your works been succesfull in our times? When is it OK to take action where action is needed? They can bomb us, the can starve their own people, and kill then by the 10's of thousands, but our only answer is ....TALK. AND IT DOES NOT WORK!!!

 

These are tribal nations which do not understand western diplomacy. Keep throwing your money away, but I don't want my tax $ to go onto that heap.

 

(Sorry i could not find a graph or link with a graph on BS hard as I looked).

 

 

[{GD}Independent]

Knix, I love you, man. (In a purely Charlton-Heston-in-a-beer-commercial sort of way, of course!)

[RXS]

This chart is also instructive.  http://www.globalpartnerships.org/globalpo...assistgraph.htm

 

Your chart shows that, by one measure, the US is seven tenths of one percent behind the leader, Denmark.  My chart shows that, by another measure, the US is nine hundred and three percent ahead of Denmark.  If you were on the receiving end of this giving, would you care that the US gave .14 percent of our GNP versus Denmark's .84, or would you care more about the US giving $15,791,000,000,000 (yes, that's nearly 16 trillion dollars) versus Denmark's 1.7 trillion dollars?

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Thank You GD Indi...that is exactly what I asked for in an earlier post...funny how no one could find it I suspected there would be a vast difference.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Independent,Jul 10 2005, 09:44 PM]This chart is also instructive.  http://www.globalpartnerships.org/globalpo...assistgraph.htm

 

Your chart shows that, by one measure, the US is seven tenths of one percent behind the leader, Denmark.  My chart shows that, by another measure, the US is nine hundred and three percent ahead of Denmark.  If you were on the receiving end of this giving, would you care that the US gave .14 percent of our GNP versus Denmark's .84, or would you care more about the US giving $15,791,000,000,000 (yes, that's nearly 16 trillion dollars) versus Denmark's 1.7 trillion dollars?

7450[/snapback]

Thanks for at least clicking my links. The discussion was about a comparison between the US and European countries. If you add up the European countries mentioned in that chart, you'll find they contribute more than the US in total.

 

Where has your works been succesfull in our times?

Compare the number of democracies in Africa now with 20 years ago. It may not be in the news much, it may not be spectacular, but there is progress. As for forcefully removing dictators - it doesn't seem to work very well.

[[FF5]Knix]

Never said that it would be a quick and painless process, but at the end of the day it will be succesfull....WITH EUROPE'S HELP.