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Possible change to the first Amendment?


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KNIX,Jun 27 2005, 04:43 PM]No not really. You are suggesting that those Americans who want to ban the desecration of the US flag are ethnocentric extremists? I'm quite sure that if I went to the middle of Amsterdam and burned a Dutch flag, people would not be coming up to me to shake my hand, and offer me the latest in wooden clogs.

6333[/snapback]

 

No they will all be laughing at you.

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riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Surak, thanks for your standard wise 'donkey' comment, but ....***edited out because it was demeaning and not worthy of someone of your intellect, KNIX. You can get your point across without degrading another****

 

 

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I'm quite sure that if I went to the middle of Amsterdam and burned a Dutch flag, people would not be coming up to me to shake my hand, and offer me the latest in wooden clogs. And I would not suggest those who were upset with me to be "extremists" either.

 

They'd look at you the same way as they'd look at you when you were burning tophats or teddybears or anything else, shake their heads and move along.

 

Actually not so. When dealing with such a topic, anyone can shoot holes through any publications "ranking" system. When ya get right down to it, asking the people where they either ASPIRE to travel to, wish to RETURN to, or LIVE in other then their own country, would be the correct measuring stick.

 

No. Asking people's OPINION of a place they've probably NEVER BEEN TO and mostly know through FICTION is not better than using OBJECTIVE, QUANTIFIABLE data.

 

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From the 2004 UN Human Development Report

 

On the topic of which country is the best to live in... Need I remind you all that the quality of life in a country depends not on the lives of one person or half the population, but on the life of everyone. Just gotta flaunt this 1st place.

 

 

Anyway, Goo's last point there is a very valid one. No Norwegian would attack, insult or offend a flag burner. It's not an insult to me if someone burns the Norwegian flag. No one burns a flag for fun, so obviously it's an act of political protest. Now my question is; why are you Americans offended by seeing the American flag being burnt? Because I just don't get it.

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....***edited out because it was demeaning and not worthy of someone of your intellect, KNIX.

 

1) There IS a Pokeman discussion down the hall on the right. If you don't believe me, just go look...no you..you passed it...comeback towards me....STOP! Ok open that door on your right....nono...your other right...woila! See now who is the smarty pants?!

 

2) My intellect is vastly overated, just ask goo. tongue.gif

 

 

Back on the topic. I believe goo that Numbers are malleable. Like my account always told me. When he was in college the answer to the question "What is 2+2" is not 4, but "What would you like it to be?". Granted that is why we had Enron, but alas I digress.

Go to a soccer match in Holland, or Italy, or England, and see how you are treated if you wear an opposing teams jersey. I HAVE been, and I've SEEN first hand. It's crazier then wearing a RedSox hat in the Yankee Stadium bleachers. So you telling me that while they might beat the living tar out of me at a Soccer match, if I come walking in with a burning Union Jack, or Dutch flag they will salute my right to express my displeasure? BULL FEATHERS. Don't lose sight of the world around you Goo. What is written in a study, or a periodical, does not actually always capture what is happening in reality. In my job I have had the good fortune to see this world of ours up close and Personal. Like I mentioned way back in the ST forums, when I was a teenager going to Italy for the Summer, as long as I said "American" I was a big celebrity, I grant you know I would probably be stoned. Patriotism shows itself in many different ways in different countries, but to burn the symbol of one's beloved country would not be looked upon by the massess in a posotive light ANYWHERE.

 

Ok well I'm off to the airport in 2 hours..going to Italy with the Family. I am going to where my "I love Bush" button, and see how well Berlusconi has pushed our cause tongue.gif.

 

See you all in 10 days.

 

Arriverderci Presto!

 

 

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Why do some get mad at others for burning the flag?

 

Maybe in part because from an early age, we have pledged allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. The flag, more than any other symbol, represents our country not to mention the numberless and untold sacrifices that our fellow Americans have paid to secure freedom for themselves and for their posterity. In my opinion, the pledge helps to impress upon our youth and our general populace, the patriotic duty of citizenship. Thomas Jefferson once wrote of how difficult it is to preserve democracy and that "To save our democracy, all Americans must unite"... our flag unites us, especially in times of national crisis.

 

For those not familiar with the pledge, I'll explain how it is conducted (usually in grade schools, sporting events, large gatherings, etc). We stand up, face the flag, place our right hand over our heart and and orally recite the following:

 

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

one nation under God indivisible,

with liberty and justice for all.”

 

Our nation was born as the first great experiment in modern democracy. We have paid the price during its birth and continue to pay the price for our freedom when called upon. Burning of the flag evokes emotions in most Americans as we feel that it is in some ways a direct attack on that which we hold close to our hearts - the right to be free, the right to a democracy, and the right to be equal among our fellow man.

 

A friend of mine wrote "We come from many backgrounds and religions and races and political ideologies. And we debate our differences vigorously. Yet, despite our differences, the flag reminds us that what makes us Americans is that we all subscribe to a common credo based on equal justice, opportunity and freedom. Our flag represents all of the things that bind us together as a nation. It is the most readily recognizable symbol of what America stands for and, as such, American citizens believe that it should be protected from physical desecration in the name of civility, if nothing else. "

 

It's not jingoism, we are just passionate about freedom and democracy.

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A post about patriotic duty, about being the first, great experiment in modern democracy, that America stands for freedom, democracy and equality, etc. etc. And then ending it with... it's not jingoism! laugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gif

 

KNIX: so your personal experience (what we would call 'anecdotal evicence', a sample of one) says more than any actual facts, based on the experiences of thousands of people? You must be a very special person.

 

(As for the national team, there haven't been any riots in ages. And if they do happen, they're mostly directed at street furniture, not any actual people. Plus it's the only time ever people get patriotic - a real exception. The burning a flag in the street was a much better example.)

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You know Goo, your post dissapoints me. Nowhere did I say that our country is any better so stop beating it down. You asked for an explanation of why some might take offense to the flag burning which I tried to explain - only to find out how obtuse you really are. Your reply is another pathetic example of anti-American sentiment.

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Care to quantify any of those statements?

 

All I was saying is that what you wrote there is exactly what I was referring to by using the word jingoism. Do you know of any other country where people go on and on about the sacrifices they made for democracy and where people actually have to pledge allegiance to a flag? That is some of the more extreme nationalistic behaviour out there.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Americans are often perceived to be astonishingly proud of their standard of living, of their country's achievements in the fields of international science and business, and for their allegiance to at least some of the ideals of the founders of the country (such as freedom and equal justice under the law), and believing that the rest of the world subsists on significantly inferior terms. This belief (percieved by the rest of the world to be common in the US) has a tendency to generate intense resentment in other industrialised countries. In most European states, for example, living standards are significantly higher than in the US. A frequently argued point is that American patriotism was the first patriotism founded on a set of political ideals, rather than on nationalism or ethnicity, although the examples of the ancient Romans, French Revolutionaries, or the Swiss, may challenge this point. Patriotism in the US often appears offensively arrogant to people from the rest of the world. For example, public persons in America frequently assert America as being "the greatest nation that has ever existed on the face of the Earth"; such superlatives may be understood as either diminishing and disparaging the standing of other nations, or as an ignorance that is hard to believe from prominent Americans. While patriotism and nationalism certainly exist throughout the world (in different degrees), the US has been remarkably successful - through the modern mass media - in promoting this view that the USA is far superior to any other nation, whether contemporary or historical. This view is widely perceived by international consumers of CNN and Hollywood motion picture productions as both arrogant and ignorant. Furthermore, Hollywood films have, in the eyes of many non-US viewers, a highly condescending and patronising theme that the rest of the world has to rely completely on the US for their own survival. Motion pictures of the genre in which "the US saves the world again" are widely viewed as arrogant, promoting the view in America that the rest of the world cannot survive without the US. American popular culture promotes this view to some extent - the popular animated television show The Simpsons, for example, makes frequent references to American beliefs that they alone are, and should be, responsible for the planet's welfare and development - a view that is not well-accepted by the 97% of the planet's population outside the USA.

 

 

(btw they also have an interesting article on American Exceptionalism)

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Bah!  You try to equate jingoism to patriotism.

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Can you look at it from his point of view RXS? From my perspective, the line between patriotism and jingoism are pretty blurry. As Americans, I wish that we would all attempt to empathize with the rest of the world and take a look at how we're viewed, especially due to the actions of our government. Our foreign policies are subversive and inconsistent at best. I find the 'new' argument for war that Saddam was a 'bad guy' laughable, our government has never met a dictator it didn't like. Were we supposed to like him in the 80's when we gave him money and weapons?, and dislike him in the 90s when he threatened the world's oil prices? Yes, Saddam is a bad guy, and he should 'not' have invaded Kuwait-but he did 'not' have WMDs nor was he connected to Al-Qaeda. So what's the rest of the world (and many recently polled Americans) supposed to think? Bush is never in doubt, and often wrong--which translates into American imperialism to a lot of people. I think we can be proud of our accomplishments and of proud of the excellence of our citizens and work for something better while at the same time understanding that the government that represents us behaves in ways that anger the rest of the world, whether we agree with their actions or not.

 

At this point, many Americans have vocalized that they do not care what the rest of the world thinks about our policies, I however, do...these are just my silly little opinions so please keep the flames to a minimum. redface.png

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That is it! I get so tired of hearing how other nations view us. Sure I want all nations to think the best of us, but what will it take. I can understand how some nations can have a beef with our international policies. In the past they may have been well intentioned efforts, but the results were poor. So they resent the US for leaving them with out support or levying sanctions that caused hardships on the people, when it was intended for their government to change.

 

BUT

 

Why is there such resentment? America had its fun making jokes about other nations but you never hear Americans seriously slinging the hate. There is no distain for other cultures. We do what we do because it works for us. Other nations do what they do because it works for them. Different demographic and geography dictate different needs. Why judge them for it?

 

Why would Europe create this angst toward the US? We have all been through similar trials. We have all been there in the past to support each other in their time of need. If Europe decided not to support the war effort, fine. It is their decision to make. Does this mean that because of this decision the US and Europe are now at war – sure seems like it.

 

Maybe now is the time for the US to pull it military out of Europe. How many bases do we have in Russia? We need it elsewhere and they need to start building up their national defense. I guess every relationship evolves. Why not this one?

 

Now to the real topic – Flag burning

 

To me it seems disrespectful. For many of us the flag represent the fabric of our society. A visual history of our “constitution” if you would. Do we need to pass a law on flag burning? I say no. Let whom ever wants to burn the flag, burn the flag. It only holds power for those that honor it. Do I need to pass a law stating that I can not burn the Quran or the bible?

 

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Why would Europe create this angst toward the US? We have all been through similar trials. We have all been there in the past to support each other in their time of need. If Europe decided not to support the war effort, fine. It is their decision to make. Does this mean that because of this decision the US and Europe are now at war – sure seems like it.

 

No no, Thor, Europe and America are not at war, and they never were. Some of you american people, maybe the majority, simply disagree on some serious points with some of us europeans (or other). Bush's motto, that seems to be "if you're not with me, you're against me", must have lead to some misunderstanding there. Defending different opinions is not being at war. And, one darn more and last time, it's not because we don't agree with Republicans that we don't like America. I have never read anything like "americans this..." or "americans that..." in any previous post. No stupid generalities such as this, at least until now, and for good, I hope. wink.gif

 

Oh, one last thing. "Why would Europe create this angst toward the US?" - That makes me think that you might lack important info. There is no "angst" towards the US here, stop it. Most of us think your president is leading you to a catastrophic situation, and we feel sorry for you, more than actually blaming you. You chose a president who desperately tries to save the remains of a dying system that has absolutely no escape hatch for a better future. It's not the American system, it's OUR system. We all share the pain, but we just think you made the wrong choice, I see no offense in saying this.

 

_____

 

That makes me think about Knix's post about greed... Tell me, does your beloved system work in the ghost towns of the devastated mid-west? When do you think the situation will extend to major cities around the country? Don't you feel like these people, who have nothing left but their children, and gave them to the US army for a "fair" war that appears to have been based on lies, could wish to burn their flag? Should they keep it on a shelf for the day their country's leaders will really do something for them?

 

_____

 

That leads us straight to the main question: who would burn a flag in the US nowadays.

 

- Religious extremists: No. I chose not to use the word "terrorist", eh. All terrorists are/were religious extremists, but not all religious extremists are terrorists. Burning US flags would be stupid. That would make people focus on them far too much, and, as it's the case in France, your extremists are clever, know how to hide, and where to strike. They wouldn't take such a stupid risk as protesting openly for whichever cause, even war in Iraq. So, modifying the amendment in order to be able to sue them is useless.

 

- People who are disappointed by the government: Yes. But then again, it would REALLY mean something in this case. As more clever people than I have said already, there above, burning a flag is a strong symbol, but it does not necessarily mean that you don't like your COUNTRY, far from that. It may mean that you disagree with a government which, say, wants you yo give away your freedom for a cause that you feel is not fair or useless for you. Well, a Republican, nationalist, greedy government that spends billions of bucks in a country thousands miles away from your home in order to enrich the already rich companies that were chosen years before the war to "rebuild" Iraq, (which wouldn't need rebuilding if there had been no war) while letting the rust eat the industrial economy of its own country, letting poor jobless people get even poorer? That was just an example...

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Great post Genesis! wub.gif I envy your clarity...I'm getting pretty tired of legislation being brought forth because of fear, emotion, and so-called morality. It's time to get practical. It's painfully obvious why issues like these are brought up...

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I do not understand the mentality of Europe. Only what I read or see on the TV. All we see & hear over here on the news is the unrest and protests that occur when any representative of the current administration travels in Europe. We read articles from Europe about how America needs to do more for all the poor countries. How we are a bunch of imperialists. People liken our current actions to the crusades. Every person I talk politics with has this inclination. I can’t read a paper or listen to a talk radio show with out hearing that the US is resented around the world.

 

As an American I become pretty enraged about the comments. I spend plenty of time and resources aiding people around this world. I am not alone. There are millions of Americans involved in service to one degree or another for many nations. To hear other nations complain that American is not doing enough – just sets me one fire. When the disaster hit Indonesia and we pledge 30 million dollars, the worldwide response was disgust. Then we pledge 300 million two days later and we are too late? We just gave away the equivalent of 6500 peoples salaries for a year and we are wrong?

 

Everybody wants America to not only take the lead for every cause, but wants them to pay for every cause. Which means the world wants the American people to pay out of their pockets. We have already given the world $404 billion dollars in economic assistance. That equates to every man, woman and child in the US giving $1300.00 to people around the world.

 

I am tired and need some sleep. All this jingoism has worn me out.

 

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Gen, Have you ever been to the USA? Have you personaly seen what you talk about? Some of the comments in your post makes me laugh..."ghost towns of the devastated midwest" and such. Give me a break.

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Well RXS your comment makes me wonder if YOU have ever traveled in your country a bit. Talking about "ghost towns of the devastated mid-west", this very sentence was willingly exagerated, but yes, I have been there, I have seen that. Open your eyes a bit instead of wanting us to believe that this system is perfect.

 

Thor, the anti-american feeling you are talking about is certainly not as strong as you think it is. Be careful with what some TV stations say about this. I remember an american TV saying that "French people pissed on the graves of WWII US vets to protest against the war". Some of my american friends were really shocked, which is easy to understand, but since no-one in France had ever heard about this incident, I was a bit sceptical. In fact a couple of drunks had been arrested by the local police for having pissed on the grass. A US reporter thought it would be nice to turn it into a symbol of French "hate" for the US. Ain't it pathetic? There was absolutely no political meaning in this, but many people in the US were absolutely sure that a least hundreds of angry French people had pissed on the graves of their heroes to protest against the war.

 

So, here's the message: from where I live, a country which is supposed to be one of the most "anti-american" of the western democracies, there is NO anti-american feeling, but there IS an anti-republican one.

 

When you say "We read articles from Europe about how America needs to do more for all the poor countries", do you read these articles yourself, or do you just hear about it? Because European countries have no lesson to give in aiding poor countries. We all still have much to do. Oh, and I have never heard about any kind of negative reaction to US actions after the tsunami.

 

When you say "I can’t read a paper or listen to a talk radio show without hearing that the US is resented around the world", what kind of papers do you read, what kind of radios do you listen to? Is there some kind of persecution syndrome growing up in the US, maybe? I just don't understand WHY. While our leaders try to fix things up and take a fresh start, why do the media blow the flames higher?

 

It's very strange. I've read, at least 3 or 4 times and from 3 or 4 different people that "we (european people) are anti-american. Strangely, no-one has said anything that can be taken as "anti-american" in this discussion.

 

RXS, seing that some people from far away do CARE about poor people in the US amuses you. Fine. I wonder why you ask me to give you a break. Is there anything insulting for you in the fact of talking about people who are not lucky enough to live a "normal" life, considering US standards of wealth and security?

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People liken our current actions to the crusades.

This may have something to do with that:

This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.

-- George W. Bush, after stepping off the presidential helicopter on Sunday, September 16, 2001, quoted from Jonathan Lyons, "Bush enters Mideast's rhetorical minefield " (Reuters: September 21, 2001).

(he did later apologize, though the damage of course was already done)

 

can’t read a paper or listen to a talk radio show with out hearing that the US is resented around the world.

Once again: it's not you, it's your government.. (more here)

 

Everybody wants America to not only take the lead for every cause, but wants them to pay for every cause.

No, we just want you to be a bit more constructive. Look at the current G8. Everyone was on board for the British proposals, except the US. No matter what international initiative (whether it's the International Criminal Court, Kyoto, the treaty againt landmines, etc. etc.) it's usually the US that causes problems. They seem to think that if a treaty is not 100% perfect, it's better to do nothing at all.

 

As for paying: How does US foreign aid compare to the rest of the developed world by percentage of Gross National Income (GNI)? (note: Bush has recently promised the US will double aid to Africa, though at the same time his previous initiative is being cut down by the Senate.)

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w00t, go Denmark, go! Thanks for the documentation, Goo. As usual you're there to backup words with facts, saving me the Googling time smile.gif By the way, thank you Daybreak for your comment about my post, that was cool. I know this is a bit off-topic, but, can you tell me where you live, exactly? I think you're american, am I right? Well I'm asking this because too many american people think that no-one in their own country think like I do, which is certainly not the case. Too bad our good friend Despard didn't make his way to UnityHQ yet...

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Gen,

 

I travel all over the US and all over the world...I have seen a greater cross sample of America than you have and I can tell you from first hand experience (with my eyes open as you put it) that it is not the way you think it is. Are there some local economies that struggle? Sure, same as anywhere. Are they devastated ghost towns? Well, there may be a handful that have experienced a change in industry (i.e. a mine closes down and some people choose to stay in the same town...even though there may be no corner stone industry to truly support it). Those that choose to stay usually do so because they enjoy the area/people/quality of life, etc. Not to mention that there are several welfare systems in place that help less fortunate and struggling families. What devastated ghost town did you see? How did you determine it was a devastated ghost town? What were you comparing it to...Paris, New York?

 

 

It's good to know that you are concerned about us silly ol' Americans. Don't take too much offense when I tell you your post makes me laugh...it's just the epitome of a stereo type you have taken part in propagating.

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Well, I'm trying to tell you, in this discussion, that there are less seterotypes about american people than you seem to think. I never talked about "silly ol'americans", you did.

 

Anyway, don't worry, I didn't really take offense in your reply, but we certainly see the world, and the US, quite differently. According to you, people stay in little cities because they like it, despite unemployment, and because the welfare system is enough for the "less fortunate"? And it is just a change in industry? Come on, local industry in many states is completely dead, it didn't only change. Travel a few hundred miles south of Chicago, and you'll see what I mean. It's not just one State, not just one city, there are other examples out there. But I see no point in justifying if I do know the US enough to talk about it. The problem is that apparently, we've seen the same things, and it scared me, while you think it's no big deal. Time will tell...

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Ok, OK, I'll give you the Silly 'ol Americans bit was unfair. It just sounds like that from all the continuous chastising from you Euros...From my vantage point, I can't think of the last time we did something right for Europe. Everyone is quick to point out any mistake the current administration makes yet is slow to never when it comes to identifying the things they have done well. I digress.

 

And it is just a change in industry? Come on, local industry in many states is completely dead, it didn't only change.

Isn't that pretty much what I just said? A change in industry can leave a local economy nearly dead as there is no influx of money to shore it up.

 

 

The problem is that apparently, we've seen the same things, and it scared me, while you think it's no big deal. Time will tell...

You still haven't identified what "scared" you nor how you determine what a "devastated ghost town" is. And you comment "time will tell..." what are you implying here?

 

And to Goo:

it's not you, it's your government..

BS...you've been picking away at our heritage and mocking the fact that we don't like watching our flag being burned in this thread. I know where you stand with Americans...I've read your posts back the ST forums too.

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