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>FoXSy<
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So i was watching Cops last night, and guess what they Cops do,

they go to a "ghetto" city, and "plant" a brand new bike without

locks or anything, and yes, most people living in that area are poor,

and they steal the bike and bust the bike-robber, do you see

whats wrong with this picture!? that is damn low, i mean,

I aint poor but if i was poor living in Watts or whatever, and

i saw a brand new bike, id take it, 99% of ya would too if you were

in the same situation, so basicly, they repeat their "bike bust" over

and over. I think that is cheap, ya might say "well stealing is cheaper",

but if your poor and your stomachs as empty as a tip jar and you didnt

graduate from HS for whatever reason, your homeless,

wouldnt you take it? if you dont take it your either a liar

or a really religious person, im asking what would ya do in THIS situation,

not in the one your in right now, if their doing this, they might as well,

plant an iPod in the street and bust 100's of people a day for taking it...

I dont watch Cops much but i used to think it was a show that showed Cops

being good and not crooked like the time where they shot 120+ shots at

an unarmed suspect in a car last month in Compton...

 

Damn, watching this made me wanna play that **** tha Police song tongue.gif

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they might as well,

plant an iPod in the street and bust 100's of people a day for taking it...

5253[/snapback]

 

But then they'd only catch middle class thieves, and we all know that the police are there to protect the middle classes from those awful nasty poor people biggrin.gif

 

Yeah, COPS is pretty evil...

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I can understand your frustration. I'm not exactly sure how the police department in Los Angeles County expects to improve life and security for various neighborhoods by setting up unethical traps for underprivileged people. It sounds more like some bizarre social experiment to me, or an excuse to mock people of a lower socioeconomic class. I support the police in this country 100%, but it's difficult to defend them sometimes when they continually make these kinds of choices.

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Its not entrapment. If they are to walk up to a individual, point out the free standing bike to them, suggest that they steal it, and arrest them when they do, then thats entrapment. Is this baiting however? Sure. But no one is suggesting anyone steal it. If your dumb enough to do so and caught....then you are S.O.L .

 

Please enough with this whiny stuff, god makes me want to vomit. When you also see sting operations on "John's" trying to pick up under-cover officers dressed as prostitutes are you saying to yourself...."Ya Know, they would never pull that crap in Brentwood!"

 

Your stomach as empty as a "tip Jar?" There is a multitude of ways to get fed in this country. Welfare, WORKfare, meals on wheels programs, soup kitchens. And if you are physically able, there are 1000's of opportunitys to make some cash, while not a bounty, enough to feed yourself.

 

So Foxsy don't try to excuse petty larceny due to someone being poor or hungry.

 

 

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So Foxsy don't try to excuse petty larceny due to someone being poor or hungry.

5266[/snapback]

 

Wow. Spoken like a true person who has never been poor, or hungry.

 

Everything that you mentioned takes an investment of time, and often capital, which the people we are talking about don't have. Want to get a job? Get a suit and tie, costs money, got to go to an interview and wait around for 2 hours to be seen, costs time. Now if you're a single parent, where do you get that time or money?

 

If you are mentally ill and have no insurance, how to do you get treatment enough to be able to get a job? And, how can you get insurance without money? And what if you haven't eaten for a couple of days? You see a bike and a job application form I guarantee that you will take the bike. Again, job apps take time, so what do you eat until then?

 

And you know, when I see cops doing stings with fake prostitutes, I think: "Why not just start a fake HMO, wait for the board to elect a new director, then, as soon as he starts embezzling, slap the cuffs on, and give him a few kicks while you put him in the car." Oh yeah, I forgot. White collar criminals who ruin the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people get a stern talking to, while an underpriveleged kid who steals a bike gets chucked in jail where he will have a 75% probability of being gang-r**ed, a greater than 50% chance of becoming addicted to drugs and will, more than likely, become a recidivist, and spend the vast majority of his life behind bars.

 

Don't just say that there are hundreds of other ways for people to feed themselves; why don't you go out and live on the street for a couple of weeks. Eat at these magical mystical soup kitchens where the soup is hot and fresh and flows freely. Sleep rough for two weeks, then try and apply for a job with your clothes stinking of body odour and covered in dirt and mess. Join a welfare to work program, and enjoy the thrills and spills of working 18 hour days for $2.75 an hour, woohoo...?

 

And conservatives wonder why people think they have hearts as black as coal which only beat when they're sucking the blood from the neck of a newborn baby. A society must be judged by the conditions under which those most at risk are living, and, using that benchmark, neither of our countries comes off looking very good, Knix.

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I feel attacked and betrayed! biggrin.gif (hides his evil Capitalist tools and sulks into the darkness).

 

I didn't say that these people would FLURISH with the opportunities presented to them in this country. I said they would have enough to FEED themselves. And I don't know what the minimum wage is in Australia, but it ain't $2.75 an hour in the land of Uncle Sam M8!

 

I've had this arguement in different forms too many times. I feel like this is just a merry go round. I have my beliefs you have yours. Mine have been noted, so have yours. I disagree with yours, you disagree with mine.

 

I have never been "poor" and I have never gone "hungry". The people however of whom Foxsy was refering to, do not live in Somalia or The Congo either. I did'nt say their opportunities were as bountifull as say mine. I did say that they HAVE opportunities available to them.

 

I agree that the white coller crimes effect many more people then a guy stealing a bike. I am happy when I see the likes of the CEO of World Com facing the rest of his life in prison. Does that mean its ok to steal a bike? A car? Rob a bank?

 

Blah i'm off the merry go round. Off to nolf.

 

 

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Thanks, Knix. tongue.gif

 

Personal attacks are not tolerated, so watch it guys.

 

It IS a very bad word if you've ever experienced it, Foxsy. It was getting used too much, so it was set to be filtered so those who have had their lives ruined by the ordeal don't have to see the word used all over the place.

 

Do I think setting the bike out there was a lame way to catch criminals? Yes. Do I think the officers time could have been used elsewhere and in a manner better for the community? Sure. That doesn't excuse people for doing the wrong thing and stealing, though. It's wrong... you know that, I know that, they knew it too. It doesn't matter what their circumstances are in life and it shouldn't be used as an excuse either. There are plenty of hungry, needy people in desperate circumstances who also posses a strong moral code. They wouldn't appreciate the suggestion that it's acceptable for someone to commit a crime simply because of their current situation in life.

 

 

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So now that Foxsy has gone back to the Kids table Coach, lets you a me talk some grown-up talk. What are your thoughts about Schapelle Corby verdict?

 

user posted image

 

For those who don't know this case. Schapelle Corby was a beautician who went to Bali Indonesia (The get away place for many Aussie's and Kiwi's) but was caught at customs with 4.1KG of Maryjane. She says that she was an unknowing mule, and that the drugs were planted by baggage claim back in Sydney upon her departure. Anyhow the Indonesian Govt who as the most populous Muslim country in the world don't take kindly to Whitey bringing MaryJane onto the premises ( See the movie Midnight Express for example). Anyhow in a very public trial, with her family in the audience, she is found guilty and sentenced to 20 YEARS in prison. Not only that, in the azz-backward Indonesian legal system. If her lawyers decide to contest/appeal the verdict, and the decision is not overturned, the charge can get bumped up to the Death Penalty! Anyhow many Aussies are rightfully outraged and want to boycot Indonesia which would cripple the tourist population which rely's on Aussie Dollars (Yanks ain't exactly flooding the gates at Jakarta in this day and age.) Other Aussie's say that just like foreigners have to follow the laws in Australia, so do Aussies in other countries........

 

 

So Coach what say you on your incarcerated countrywoman?

 

Foxsy if you don't finish whats on your plate you get no dessert!

 

biggrin.gif

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stealing is wrong, and so is bringing maryjane anywere tongue.gif

even if your poor and have nothing to eat..

 

i mean arnt u a bit of a retard if u steal a bike when u have nothing to eat, what u gonna eat then? the bike? now if u would rob a bakery id say theres some logic there but not now

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I do feel bad about Schapelle Corby...if she is inocent (I suspect she is), 20 years in prison at such a young age is really a drag.

 

I think it is worthy to note that Indonesia did bend their laws for her since the standard punishment is death. If I had a choice between the two...I'd make my last request before going to prison for some needle and thread to sew my butt shut....see ya in 20.

 

What I haven't heard is, why they did not dust the drug packages for finger prints...if she knew about it, I would expect her finger prints to be on the packages...if not, there is obviously some merrit to her story.

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Topic cleaned up, many posts deleted... mad.gif

No more spamming with silly nonsense or insulting each other. Stay on topic! ranting2.gif

 

BTW, topics can morph into other issues as long as it's relevant and the original topic has been discussed in depth.

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i think that foxsy is right, and i dont agree with you knix.

 

i do not care how "moral you are or anything like that, if u r dirt poor like the people are in the places they set these traps up in. until you are dirt poor knix you cannot really tell us how you are so good and that it is horrible to do this. you forget, most of the people in these places are minorities and a lot of jobs out there discriminate (although they will never admitt it) and if a white man and a hispanic man apply for the same job 98% of the time the white man will get the job. This is life, and that is why these people are stuck in these "ghetto" areas and there are hardly any job opportunities there and the ones there are are crap. So most of the time its 1 man supporting himself, his wife, and 2 or 3 kids. And those kids probably have never gotten a nice birthday presant or christmas presant. So maybe they FINALLY want to get something nice for their families and bring up the morale in the house. Also a lot of these families cant even afford cars or bikes so they walk everywhere, so a bike would help them with transportation to the store or work. So first go through this and then tell me about what is wrong and right.

 

and i am not saying its right to steal, im just sayin, this is a crappy thing for cops to do. Like foxsy said, if u put an iPod in the middle of the street in any middle class place you would get the same thing, heck knix you would probably have stolen an iPod sitting in the streets a few years ago before you had a family and stuff and a good paying job.

 

its just not fair that they target minority groups like that, but that is just life.

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Actually Spazz I would not have picked up that IPOD, as I have never stole anything in my life. I have'nt stolen anything because my parents raised me respect myself, and to respect other people's property.

Your idea on if a "minority" and a white person were to apply for the same job, that 98% of the time the job would go to the white person? I take it you have done a study on this? Or at least you have read another person's study somewhere? Or is that your just your opinion?

 

Actualy to base employment on a person's race, color, creed, or sexual preference is illegal. Does it happen? Sure it happens. But to say that it happens almost all the time is ludicrous.

 

The POINT again, is what Foxsy believes to be nefarious reasoning by the police to TARGET poor people. I have heard many people make excuses for WHY someone from a poor socio-economic community would have reason to steal the bike. What I cannot seem to get through to you all, is that IT IS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER ok to do so. And to exuse such behavior for the reasons you all have given, is puting the same people you are trying to "protect" at a disadvantage. There are MANY people in these communities who had the same lessons taught to them, as were taught to me by my parents. They WILL NOT steal that bike. When something is RIGHT is does not hinge on how much $$$$ you have in your wallet. I does not hinge on the amount of melatonin in your skin. It hinge's on whether you wish to do RIGHT or not.

 

People, please stop spouting the same crap you see on MTV "rock the vote!" and actually educate yourselves on these topics. You have control of yourself. You have control of your actions. You have control of what you teach your children if you have any. Excuses are like a--h-l-s. Everyone has one and they all stink.

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Here's my two cents.

 

We don't know what the intention of the police were when they conducted this sting. Maybe the neighborhood had a rash of bike thefts and this was the best way to catch bike thiefs. This is the same method that police use to catch thiefs that break into cars to steal stereos, etc....they leave a bait car out and hope a thief takes the bait. What will your argument be then? I'm sure some of you will justify it.

 

Let me tell you that there was a time in my life when my wife and I were poorer than church mice. During that time, I never stole bikes/cars/what have you. I busted my onions to make ends meet while I was going through school and raising a family. Don't give me the chicken shite, sad story about how tough it is...if I can do it, anyone can....it just takes sacrifice.

 

I for one, don't like to be lumped into the "you'll do anything if your that poor" group... As Knix said earlier, I was taught right from wrong and that you can justify your actions all the way to hell. We always have a choice and we can always choose to do what's right right...we are not victims of society. Get off that crutch and make something of your life - no one else will do it for you. Will it be tough? Guaranteed. Can it be done? Guaranteed.

 

And as far as discrimination goes....as a white male, I have been discriminated against in hundreds of ways where minorities have not.

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that is a very valid point RXS. it is true no1 ever said the motive for doing the sting and if it was high rates of stolen bikes then it is a fine move, but if they are doing it just because they know that poor hispanic people tend to steal more than middle class white people and that area has a lot of hispanic people, then its just wrong, thats the point im trying to get across. and knix sorry for sounding so harsh and like i was attacking you earlier, i wasnt, just trying to get out the way i felt. and like i stated at the end, stealing is still wrong, but i just dont think cops should pick on minority groups like that, that is all. and srry for the accusation on the iPod stealing wink.gif

 

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How do you all think sociologists would study this problem? I don't think that they would retreat to the moral high-ground and apply a black-and-white world of ethics to various groups of people in order to find a root cause, which is interesting because it doesn't sound like some people are particularly interested in the root cause. Please don't over-simplify a complex problem like this one.

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How do you all think sociologists would study this problem?

 

They would say...."Hey ya know that handsome devil KNIX makes a good point! I say we go with his position!"

 

(Refer to Occam's Razor or the K.I.S.S method of problem solving )

 

wink.gif

 

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(Refer to Occam's Razor or the K.I.S.S method of problem solving )

5545[/snapback]

 

You're joking right? With all due respect, have you noticed that your opinions on this matter have been all about you?, your morality... and what 'you' would do when faced with this situation...Occam's Razor probably works well for 'you', because it enables you to claim moral superiority, yet it says absolutely nothing about the issue being discussed. I feel that I've grown up with much the same values as you have regarding what is right and wrong, but to apply these same values and standards to radically different social groups is both myopic and inappropriate. Economically speaking, did you ever consider the notion that the existence of poor people is functional for the rich? That the middle class of this country may be shrinking in favor of socioeconomic extremes?

 

Consider the following...Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, public schools are funded by taxes collected from that particular neighborhood/district. It's no secret that poor neighborhoods typically have schools that are in disrepair, are lacking in qualified instructors and course materials, and are financially unable to provide an education comparable to wealthier neighborhood school systems. The parents of these school children have most likely received a similarly poor education, which is why they tend to work difficult, menial jobs for minimum wage and must do so for 70-80 hours a week just to make ends meet. This aspect would account for parents being absent from their children's lives, thus putting them at risk for juvenile delinquency. Realities in poor neighborhoods of the US tend to be rather harsh; with violent crime and drug use pervading the streets. People don't turn to drugs and alcohol to 'offend' the moral majority or with the intention of victimizing anyone, they do it to escape their reality. Economic strife and despair can easily lead to self-medication. When drugs and alcohol become the norm, all bets are off with regards to criminal activity. Having a drug and alcohol habit is expensive and time consuming which probably leads many people to lead lives that go against their own values and best interests, which include stealing a bike for money, food, drugs, alcohol, or whatever he or she feels that they need that they cannot or will not provide for themselves. The economic/racial divide of wealth in this country is certainly noteworthy: Can you see how minorities might view the predominantly white, wealthier class of people with anger and resentment? If I'm not mistaken, you yourself implied in another post that it takes money here in California to be acquitted of crimes that the rest of society is fairly sure took place...and poor people don't have it, so they inhabit our penal system at staggeringly high numbers.

 

I just want people to explore the idea that maybe there's more to the story behind some people in a bad neighborhood on Cops stealing bikes. I think it's time that we start putting ourselves into the shoes of other people and solving the real underlying problems instead of judging them from behind a proverbial pulpit.

 

I didn't mean to direct this all at you KNIX, but rather anyone reading. I still respect you and enjoy reading your opinions...

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Just in reply to what Knix said about Schappelle Corby, she's most probably guilty, so I think it's a shame, as we all know what a whacko I am when it comes to drug laws, but she wasn't set up or anything, she knew what the score was, so she should get put away like anyone else. What you don't see in world media reports about the case, because they are so desperate to demonise those nasty Muslims in Indonesia, is that her father is terminally ill, and has no money for treatment, her half brother is a career criminal who is mixed up with a variety of unsavoury types and on the video of her standing next to her bag while they open it, she is s***ing herself. Not a smoking gun uzi.gif but pretty compelling circumstantial evidence.

 

As for the azz-backwards Indonesian legal system (what the hell does Azazel have to do with ANYTHING? cool.gif ) I think that you, like most of the world, has bought the hype for $1.99 instead of paying $2.50 for the truth. Not long ago, during the trial, Australians were all in a huff about those primitive Indonesians, because newspapers all over the place started to tell people that the legal system in Indo has a presumption of guilt, rather than innocence. This is totally not true, and I read an article by an Australian legal professor, who had spent half his life studying their legal system, which suggested that their courts were at least as fair as ours.

 

You know, the funny thing is that, currently, there are about a dozen Australians facing the death penalty for drug trafficking offences in various Asia countries. Unfortunately for them, they aren't pretty white girls from Queensland, so nobody gives a rat's about them. How strange... huh.gif

 

I'm not continuing with the poverty and theft discussion, as I've said my bit, and it would appear that in between my posting it and my coming back here some heated posting took place, so let's keep it chilled moon doggies. By the way Knix, that line in my post about eating babies was meant to mock liberals who call conservatives evil, just to clarify. No nastiness intended, but when I read it back it didn't sound that way smile.gif

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I'm telling ya, reading posts from daybreak and Coach is like drinking a big pot o' coffee. It gets the juices flowing in whats left of my grey matter at the end of a long day of work.

 

Okayyyy

 

Daybreak- It would be foolish of me to suggest that there are not great injustices in the great country of ours. To say that people start off at the same starting line for this marathon we call life would be straight out wrong. When I speak of personal responsability I am not including those people with mental hadicaps. I am saying that a great many people who are successfull now-a-days have come out of childhoods made of up dire straits. To excuse behaviour because of one's socio-economic standing does a disservice to the people of which you are trying to defend. Also I never said that the penal system in Caly is based on $$$. Of course being rich helps. I said that celebrity is what seems to blind the jurists in So. Cal. I remember that Judge Ito during the O.J. trial seemed overwhelmed by the situation, almost catoring to the defendent. Anyhow, point taken on your comments.

 

Coach- You obviously know more about the Schappele Corby case then I do. While I agree with you that she is guilty; to say that her crime warrants 20 years in the clink is arguable. Any country who's legal system is based on a religious code gives me the heebie jeebies. The seperation of church and state is the backbone of a democracy. You can get liquored outta your skull on the beaches of Bali, but you 20 years for dope? Also like I mentioned, if you wish to appeal the verdict, you risk having your sentence bumped up to the death penalty if your appeal is denied?!!! Is this a sick game show?

 

"Ok Ms. Corby you can take the 20 years in a rathole prison, or you can look behind door number 2!" Audience- " Take the 20 years! Take the 20 years!"

 

I could understand if she drunk driving and killed someone, but 4 kilos of pot..a first time offense?!

 

Again reminds me of....

 

user posted image

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Yeah, I know what you said you heard about appeal and you get death, but what I was saying above is that the media around the world is happily believing any lie they are told about Indonesian justice without even a quick phone call to verify the facts. I'll believe a professor of law who has studied Indonesia his whole life over the hacks at Newscorp any day (and twice on Tuesday).

 

And hey; you know how I feel about drug laws. But I also believe in taking some responsibility for your actions, and, as we say around my backyard, copping it sweet. A good economist once explained that people in a society are in an unwritten, two-way contractual agreement wherein they are given the right to earn money which is theirs to keep and do with what they see fit. In a good society they are also given proper avenues to attain medical treatment and education at an affordable price. In entering into such an agreement, however, the people are bound to follow the rules of their society, and accept the punishments dished out.

 

Now, this may seem like hypocrisy when you consider my position on the case which started this thread, but there is a difference. My point, in my long rambling reply to your post Knix, is that society has failed the underpriveleged, and has not met their contractual obligations. To add insult to injury the police are then used to set them up and throw them in the slammer! That's unspeakably immoral in my books. Society has not failed Schappelle Corby. She was studying a course which would have got her a good job, she obviously had enough money to take a trip to Asia for a holiday, which, even given the geographical conveniences, is still a $600 - $1000 return trip, and she got caught smuggling dope.

 

And 4kgs?!? Dude! That's an arseload of dope! In New South Wales, the state I live in, we have a cannabis cautioning system. The police got so sick of mandatory prosecution for dope possession offences that they were given discretionary powers with pot. If you are found with pot, for personal use, the police are required to confiscte it and either issue a verbal or written warning, a "cannabis caution" (CC). Three CCs and you can be put in jail, but most cops don't issue CCs, they confiscate the drugs and then release the person holding them with a verbal warning which isn't recorded. I know friends who get sprung by sniffer dogs once a week or so, and they have never seen the inside of a court.

 

But the maximum under NSW law which counts as personal use is 5 oz. which is somewhere around the 140 g. mark. Corby was holding about 3 - 400 times that amount. ohmy.gif First offence or not, there are states in the US which will put you away for even longer than the Indos did for that quantity of any class-A illicit substance. I mean, 4 kgs?

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Oh Yeah no doubt. 4 keys is a whole lotta herb. Unless she has a real bad case of Glaucoma, no reason to be possesing that, unless it was meant for distribution. As far as US law goes, we have the 3 strike law (Rockefeller law), where on your 3rd drug offense (no matter the quantity) you get put away for life. We also have an un-written law simmilar to that one of which you spoke. Here many cops don't want to be hassled with the paper work for minor pot possesion. They will just confiscate it and send you on your way ( I wonder if it makes it back to the station house laugh.gif )

 

THe supreme court just last weeked ruled that federal law trumps state law in regard to medicinal marijuana. California (surprise!) has one of the more liberal medicinal marijuana laws. They and other states now, will have to get a law passed now through congress to be allowed to continue to legally distribute medicinal marijuana. It was too easy to circumvent. Cops were telling stories off arresting big time drug dealers with "Shapelle" like quatities, only to have them try and show the cops their medicinal marijuana license. tongue.gif

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California (surprise!) has one of the more liberal medicinal marijuana laws. They and other states now, will have to get a law passed now through congress to be allowed to continue to legally distribute medicinal marijuana. It was too easy to circumvent. Cops were telling stories off arresting big time drug dealers with "Shapelle" like quatities, only to have them try and show the cops their medicinal marijuana license. tongue.gif

5678[/snapback]

 

Hey, Californians need to toke the bomb-bud, the poor bastards aren't even allowed to own ferrets.

 

Ah, land of the Governator... Any man who, when asked a quote from one of his films which reflects how he felt when he won, quotes Conan: The Barbarian, deserves the big finger.

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