Nature vs. Nurture

[[FF5]Knix]

Well I've never heard of any research on the sexuality of children of gay people, but if there is any that takes into account both nature (the sexuality of the parents/sperm/egg donor) and nurture that would certainly offer interesting insight. If anyone know of such studies, feel free to bring them forth. I'm not 100% sure what your point was Susie, but if you'd care to clarify and substantiate it, I'd be interested to hear it!

 

Still as long as there is no definitive research on this stuff, doesn't it make sense to believe that gay people know whether they have been gay from birth or only developed those feelings later? If someone's broken a leg, surely they know best how they broke it. If you're happy, you'll usually know why. All gay people I know are as intelligent and self-insightful as anyone else, and are surely very competent judges of their own psyche and condition.

 

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, nature vs nurture is a purely philsophical discussion, and whether it's genetic, environmental, chosen for kicks or some combination of these, the discussion should not affect or overshadow homosexuals' civil and legal rights or value and qualities as human beings. But if we need the discussion, it's rather absurd to not consider gay people the best source of insight into the gay mind.

 

Unless you have an incredible memory Mari; I'm not quite sure I believe that you can remember your sexual preference at birth, or even at 4 or 5 years old for that matter. I don't remember coming out of the womb and blowing a wolf whistle at the nurse. So I think it fair to say that not even gay people can reasonibly decree that they have been so since birth. Since they first had sexual urges? Ok I can believe that. But from the time of your first sexual urge, can you be sure that no stimulus may have caused it? An event or series of events that may have steered you in one direction or another?

You say you had a happy childhood, and I believe it. I also believe that stimulus can come in all forms, not just bad.

Someone watches a tv show about spiders at a very early age. Never likes spiders after that. Doesn't neccesarily mean they had a horrible childhood, however this one forgotten tv show effects how they view spiders the rest of their lives.

 

So, it's not a question of who to ask, as no person can remember anything early on in life.

[robert]

Unless you have an incredible memory Mari; I'm not quite sure I believe that you can remember your sexual preference at birth, or even at 4 or 5 years old for that matter. I don't remember coming out of the womb and blowing a wolf whistle at the nurse. So I think it fair to say that not even gay people can reasonibly decree that they have been so since birth. Since they first had sexual urges? Ok I can believe that. But from the time of your first sexual urge, can you be sure that no stimulus may have caused it? An event or series of events that may have steered you in one direction or another?

You say you had a happy childhood, and I believe it. I also believe that stimulus can come in all forms, not just bad.

Someone watches a tv show about spiders at a very early age. Never likes spiders after that. Doesn't neccesarily mean they had a horrible childhood, however this one forgotten tv show effects how they view spiders the rest of their lives.

 

So, it's not a question of who to ask, as no person can remember anything early on in life.

 

 

here.here

 

well put Knixy. Its virtually impossible to say that somone is born gay...as i said you can hardly understand signs at birth let alone whether you like the hotdog or the donut. I of course mean No Offense to you Mari you are a spectacular person...I just disagree with somone who says they have been gay since birth. Maybe too much coddeling by the mother or father can contribute to being gay...maybe not enough....there are hundreds if not thousands of things that an hapen that can make a person gay or straight while i understand your opinion Mari i ahve to say that how is it that you can say youve been gay since birth? When in toddler school and daycare are you saying you were Interested in kissing a woman then? I agree with knix on when he says that it have have been from the first sexual urges but I refuse to think that a 2 year old child is homosexual.

[robert]

Unless you have an incredible memory Mari; I'm not quite sure I believe that you can remember your sexual preference at birth, or even at 4 or 5 years old for that matter. I don't remember coming out of the womb and blowing a wolf whistle at the nurse. So I think it fair to say that not even gay people can reasonibly decree that they have been so since birth. Since they first had sexual urges? Ok I can believe that. But from the time of your first sexual urge, can you be sure that no stimulus may have caused it? An event or series of events that may have steered you in one direction or another?

You say you had a happy childhood, and I believe it. I also believe that stimulus can come in all forms, not just bad.

Someone watches a tv show about spiders at a very early age. Never likes spiders after that. Doesn't neccesarily mean they had a horrible childhood, however this one forgotten tv show effects how they view spiders the rest of their lives.

 

So, it's not a question of who to ask, as no person can remember anything early on in life.

 

 

here.here

 

well put Knixy. Its virtually impossible to say that somone is born gay...as i said you can hardly understand signs at birth let alone whether you like the hotdog or the donut. I of course mean No Offense to you Mari you are a spectacular person...I just disagree with somone who says they have been gay since birth. Maybe too much coddeling by the mother or father can contribute to being gay...maybe not enough....there are hundreds if not thousands of things that an hapen that can make a person gay or straight while i understand your opinion Mari i have to say that how is it that you can say you've been gay since birth? When in toddler school and daycare are you saying you were Interested in kissing a woman then? I agree with knix on when he says that it may have been from the first sexual urges but I refuse to think that a 2 year old child is homosexual.

Edited September 24, 2007 by robert

[robert]

No need to have trouble, cause it's not genetic! Or why are "children" of gay parents never gay themselves?

 

 

this is a very narrowminded and bigoted view Dejan.

[Spacko]

While they say we have sexual impulses from a very very young age, you're right that we probably can't remember those impulses until we grow a little older. Still, considering all of this, how do we know that people aren't born gay?

[[FF5]Knix]

While they say we have sexual impulses from a very very young age, you're right that we probably can't remember those impulses until we grow a little older. Still, considering all of this, how do we know that people aren't born gay?

 

Without further study and research, we can't, thus my earlier proposal of research.

 

If causation can eventually be determined, and treatment (whether medicinal, or w/e) can be offered as an alternative to prospective parents, or the individual themselves, then imo it would be benefit everyone. I say offered not forced upon.

 

 

[Kitty!]

I actually have some few memories from when i was like 5, im 4 real but staying in topic, very interesting the fact that being gay doesnt mean u had a bad childhood, or was molested, being exposed to certain things may cause it. Lets say a little boy watches little mermaid a lot, he may want to be like that character, ignoring the fact that hes a boy and hes supposed to enjoy boy stuff. Again theres many reason why this is happening, its funny how some ppl have girls and they let them play with boy stuff like soccer balls, boyish videogames and play other boyish stuff and when boys play with girls stuff, its a red flag Nothing wrong with girls being tomboy, cause we girls are as good as u guys, but i hope u get what i mean ^^ To answer Spacko's question, theres no answer to that, that question is like other mystery questions, i personally think u cant be born gay, its something u develop later in life.

[Spacko]

Without further study and research, we can't, thus my earlier proposal of research.

 

If causation can eventually be determined, and treatment (whether medicinal, or w/e) can be offered as an alternative to prospective parents, or the individual themselves, then imo it would be benefit everyone. I say offered not forced upon.

 

Oh I deffo agree that there should be more research. Knowledge is always our friend.

 

If there is some sort of treatment for it, well. If the treatment can be performed throughout a person's life and thus when they are capable of requesting or rejecting the treatment themselves, it would fundamentally be okay. However, bear in mind that even for those old enough to make that call, it's still a huge problem that many would likely find themselves pressured into it by parents, friends and so on.

 

Then there's the fact that the mere idea of "curing" homosexuality conditions that it's a disease or negative condition, and I guess I just don't see it as one. Unnatural, yeah, but a small percentage of us being gay is not harmful to society nor a fatal flaw in the individual. In my opinion, if something like a "cure" is possible, then it should be considered as radical as a sex change. Not something you can do on a whim, not something parents can order for their child, but a radical alteration of a human being that only that person can decide and only that person will have to live with.

[{GD}Independent]

Mari, I just want you to know that despite my very firm beliefs about these issues, I don't hate gay people. From what I know of you through this forum and NOLF, I like and respect you very much. In college, I worked in a theater building sets. My boss and many of my coworkers were gay, and I had very close, personal friendships with many of them. I also waited tables in college, and of course met many gay people in that job too. Same thing happened there in terms of personal relationships. We had many drunken nights in the bars debating these same issues, and we never lost respect for each other in the process, even if there were some hard feelings from time to time. So, for what it's worth, I just want you to know that I really do hope you have much happiness in your life, and when you do not, I have deepest sympathies for you. I know no one wants my pity, and that's not what I'm offering. I just know that being gay must come with immense stresses and emotional hurt from time to time, and I wish you the best in all things.

--Indy

[[FF5]Knix]

Oh I deffo agree that there should be more research. Knowledge is always our friend.

 

If there is some sort of treatment for it, well. If the treatment can be performed throughout a person's life and thus when they are capable of requesting or rejecting the treatment themselves, it would fundamentally be okay. However, bear in mind that even for those old enough to make that call, it's still a huge problem that many would likely find themselves pressured into it by parents, friends and so on.

 

Then there's the fact that the mere idea of "curing" homosexuality conditions that it's a disease or negative condition, and I guess I just don't see it as one. Unnatural, yeah, but a small percentage of us being gay is not harmful to society nor a fatal flaw in the individual. In my opinion, if something like a "cure" is possible, then it should be considered as radical as a sex change. Not something you can do on a whim, not something parents can order for their child, but a radical alteration of a human being that only that person can decide and only that person will have to live with.

 

I agree that it is no small matter. Also in all honesty I don't see such an option being available to anyone in our lifetime as it is not exactly at the forefront on the priority scale in the medical community.

 

I'm not sure that if such an option existed, it would be as radical as a sex change. But again, this is theory and would be dertmined on the treatment available. With "Sex re-assignment" (as sex change operations are called), the person having the procedure is enduced with heavy doses of testosterone or estrogen, and plastic surgery is performed to add/remove a penis or clitoris, and add/remove breast tissue. Not exactly getting a tooth filled.

Now I used the word "cure" as I don't know which other word to use. My views on the lifestyle,practice,preference is pretty clear by now. If I use instead "reverse,treat,remedy,counter-act,solve,etc" the words would still be dealing with conversion from one sexual preference to another.

 

Whether a small percentage of human kind practicing homosexuality (1 in 10 "they" say?) is good or not for humankind is, as we have seen in prior posts, much more subjective. On the flip side, if a medical option with minimal risk to the individual/parent is available where that they would afterwards prefer to engage in heterosexual relationships and all the possitives and negatives that go with it; I don't see the downside either to the individual or society as a whole.

 

 

[Spacko]

Knixy: You're certainly right that this is a long way ahead of us, in any case. And as long as we agree that it most certainly is a big deal when and if we get there, I'm not gonna be concerned about whether or not it's as big a deal as sexual reassignment/realignment. Still, I wish they would put more research into it.

 

And Indy: Thanks! I have to admit I haven't had much grief and problems with being gay, but nevertheless I appreciate your sympathy. I like you too - even if you are straight

[Caip]

And THAT's the problem with liberals. They CANNOT distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral. Everything goes. I'm sorry to break it to you, but there IS a difference between right and wrong. It has nothing to do with opinion.

 

You are quite caught up in your "the liberals were sent from hell to stick foreign objects up your butt", aren't you?

 

AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease.AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease.AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease. AIDS is not a homosexual disease.

 

Stop acting like a sullen, homophobic redneck, it's silly.

 

Just curious -- If AIDS is not primarily a homosexual disease, how come there are so many gay groups involved in AIDS activism? Seems to me, they shouldn't have any more interest in the issue than straights! Huh. I must be missing something...

 

Since that is no argument, I'll just turn it around and say: There aren't many heterosexual groups that are involved in AIDS activism and yet many heterosexuals have AIDS. Maybe it's the lack of activism that should be appalling?

 

On that note, in Germany we have this huge ad campaign, it's been going on for years now and it tells everyone (I perceive the campaign as more heterosexual oriented) to use condoms to prevent HIV infection.

 

 

 

Being gay is a choice, lifestyle, preference.

 

I can totally imagine this 17 year old, insecure boy, who suffers from ridicule every single day who goes like "Hmmm...I wonder how I can invite even more hate and humiliation into my life!" What a great choice, isn't it? There are people out there who are gay, but don't want to be...do they have a choice, too? I wonder if anyone of the "gay is a choice"-people ever thought about that.

 

They can practice anal sex all they want, its their lives and if theyre enjoying, go ahead knock urself out, but im just saying anal sex is bad for ur health.

 

This has nothing to do with granting gay people the right to marry, etc. What happens in the privacy of their own bedroom is none of your damn business. Furthermore, there are plenty of heterosexual people who like anal sex.

 

Lets say a little boy watches little mermaid a lot, he may want to be like that character, ignoring the fact that hes a boy and hes supposed to enjoy boy stuff. Again theres many reason why this is happening, its funny how some ppl have girls and they let them play with boy stuff like soccer balls, boyish videogames and play other boyish stuff and when boys play with girls stuff, its a red flag rolleyes.gif Nothing wrong with girls being tomboy, cause we girls are as good as u guys, but i hope u get what i mean ^^

 

You are by far the funniest person in this thread (Sorry, Knix)! I really am amazed by your posts and I wonder how you come up with this stuff.

I guess you've seen it on TV and as we all know: the telly never lies.

 

 

 

Anyways, I fully support kitty's general opinion here that being gay is nothing natural or anything you are born with. Humans meaning of life is reproduction and that is not going to work with gay- or lesbian-love.

 

My Opinion: I frikin hate gays, in my eyes they are just a "bug of nature" and should be banned from society and locked down in a dark cave where they can touch and **** each other as much as they want, without us "normal" people (atleast in sexual regard) having to watch them.

 

For a straight guy that hates homosexuals you sure seem to see a lot of gay sex. I suggest stop surfing the internet for gay porn.

 

But yeah, I mean homosexuals cannot procreate so we should just stick them into a dark cave (no pun intended), like 10 miles underneath the ground. While we're at it we should also lump all the unfertile people in there, too, since they aren't able to procreate either. Ah, heck, let's just whack all the retards in there, too. Hm, and why stop there, also put all the blacks, latinos, asians and whatnot down there as well, since they are in the way of the advance of the white race. Oops, I kinda got carried away...well, maybe not in your eyes. (Oh i know stupid and unfair use of *HYPERBOLE*, but at least it was fun to write )

[Kitty!]

CAip, frikin take a deep breath, and free ur bad energy to some other place. U missed my other post that being gay is something u feel, so read between the lines. Its not my damn business what gay or straight ppl do in their beds, in fact i wasnt even on the gay marriage topic when i posted that, i was talking about anal sex being bad for ur health, do u have to follow my advice? NO u dont, im just educating in the fact that ANAL sex is bad for u. Nothing else, so again, read carefully. About the boy liking little mermaid... I dont appreciate ur sarcasm, if u cant understand what im trying to say, dont even bother to quote me, NO better yet, dont even read my posts. Comprende?

[Caip]

1. Spare me the bad energy crap. I am mocking you, not being angry.

2. There's no reading between the lines in a discussion. If you are unable to express your opinion clearly then that's not my fault.

3. If you don't want to be quoted, don't post.

4. I was merely pointing out that your apparent obsession with anal sex has nothing to do with granting gay people the right to marry, adopt, etc.

5. Sarcasm is great.

[Kitty!]

1. Then how about instead of mocking other ppls opinion, u bring something useful to the table. Suggestions, possible reasons, anything stupid, but at least something worth reading.

2. Its not that i cant express clearly, its that u dont get my point clearly enough.

3. Ill post as many posts i want too, u can choose to ignore my posts if u dont find them intelectual enough.

4. I have no obsession with anal sex, i was just giving my opinion on KNIX's post about gay and straight ppl practising anal sex. Pls read earlier posts.

5. Its great, fun too, but i dont have time for that BS, im interested on this topic and i wanna read useful information and maybe get educated myself, not read and waste seconds of my life reading ur... nonsense.

[Caip]

1. I expressed my opinion on this topic in several posts, but I can give you the short version:

 

Homosexuality is not a choice. Why I think that?

a) gay people told me that they didn't chose to be gay

why would anyone want to invite hate, humiliation and social marginalization into his or her life?

c) there are people who actually suffer from depression, because they can't accept their sexuality (being gay)

d) why would a senator go to some gay-toilet-meeting-place-thing and jeopardize his reputation if he had a choice not to do so? (this is in no way meant as an attack)

 

Of course, this is my opinion and you should feel free to disagree, but if you do, please make some sense and don't waste my time with your incredible far-fetched arguments that defy all logic.

 

2. Checkmate, you got me.

3. I never said you shouldn't post, but whether I ignore your posts or not is entirely up to me.

4. It's still pointless?!

5. Ah, well.

 

 

Ok, I am getting sick of my 1., 2., etc

[Kitty!]

OK FINE...

But being gay must be something u feel, and not born with. How can u remember being born gay? There must be some type of reason why ppl are gay. Some ppl start by being curious, for some of them it wears off, etc etc. Although most of them truly know their sexuality. U say gay ppl told u they didnt choose to be gay, so that means that they maybe didnt choose to be gay, but that they feel they are gay cause they feel attracted to the same gender, but can they remember being gay when 3 or 4 yrs old? I dont think they can, if they say they do, WOW. homosexuality cant be detected in that early stage of life, because kids dont have that capacity to understand sexuality. They do have curiosity about their body and such, but they cant feel attraction or tendencies. Again with my obessesion of anal sex, its not pointless to talk about it! It does make sense that gay men who do this are highly exposed to deadly deceases. Straight ones too.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Kitty!

[Spacko]

Right, with regards to the HIV/AIDS argument:

 

While gay men are overrepresented among HIV infected, woman-to-woman transferrence of HIV is very rare. Lesbian women is generally a group with a very low ratio of HIV and AIDS.

 

If this is somehow god's or nature's punishment/regulating mechanism, you'd think it would weed out both genders of gays, wouldn't you?

[[FF5]Knix]

1. I expressed my opinion on this topic in several posts, but I can give you the short version:

 

Homosexuality is not a choice. Why I think that?

a) gay people told me that they didn't chose to be gay

Like I said before to Mari; Just because the don't remember it's origination does not preclude that they were born this way...unless they kept an in utero diary. I also agree in the distinct possability that there was no choice involved either way, however was based on a event or series of events during early childhood they may not even remember.

why would anyone want to invite hate, humiliation and social marginalization into his or her life?

If you have ever been horny and aspired to have an orgasm, whatever floats your boat will supercede any mocking that may be inflicted on you. Or this point of yours would enforce the need to find an alternative option/cure/fill in word here to where they may no longer have to be subject to those things.

c) there are people who actually suffer from depression, because they can't accept their sexuality (being gay)

See 2nd part to the above response in

d) why would a senator go to some gay-toilet-meeting-place-thing and jeopardize his reputation if he had a choice not to do so? (this is in no way meant as an attack)

It is common knowledge that the Senator in question by no means attempted to invite the undercover policeman. As he plainly stated he is a "large man" who tends to spread his feet wide apart when making "the duece", and may have inadvertantly touched the foot of the policeman in the next stall. Therefor I propose the Senator put forth a bill requring the widening of all bathrooms stalls in the US to a MINIMUM of 6 feet across, where unless you take a dookie while performing a split, would deter such missunderstandings from happening in the future.

 

 

Now Mari wrote...

Right, with regards to the HIV/AIDS argument:

 

While gay men are overrepresented among HIV infected, woman-to-woman transferrence of HIV is very rare. Lesbian women is generally a group with a very low ratio of HIV and AIDS.

 

If this is somehow god's or nature's punishment/regulating mechanism, you'd think it would weed out both genders of gays, wouldn't you?

 

This has nothing to do with God (specifally). This has to do with promescuity. As I mentioned in a past post, women tend to be by nature more "nurturing/maternal" and no matter the orientation aspire to have the long monogamous relationship. Men on the other hand will screw anything with a pulse if you let them. Gay men as we have seen will go as far as to have unprotected sex as pro-tease inhibitors have given the gay male community the false impretion that even if someone gets HIV, its curable/treatable with this new medication. And to hell with wearing a hat on your jimmy when you can ride bare back and pop a pill later on!

 

[Caip]

If you have ever been horny and aspired to have an orgasm, whatever floats your boat will supercede any mocking that may be inflicted on you.

True, but then again that suggests that the person in question is (was born) bi-sexual.

 

About the depression thing, maybe if homosexuality was accepted as "normal" (whatever that is) less people would suffer from depression caused by their sexuality?

[Spacko]

Now Mari wrote...

This has nothing to do with God (specifally). This has to do with promescuity. As I mentioned in a past post, women tend to be by nature more "nurturing/maternal" and no matter the orientation aspire to have the long monogamous relationship. Men on the other hand will screw anything with a pulse if you let them. Gay men as we have seen will go as far as to have unprotected sex as pro-tease inhibitors have given the gay male community the false impretion that even if someone gets HIV, its curable/treatable with this new medication. And to hell with wearing a hat on your jimmy when you can ride bare back and pop a pill later on!

 

So if this has to do with promiscuity - and I can agree with that, as it makes perfect sense that having unprotected sex with very many partners puts one at a higher risk for STDs - I assume we can now agree that HIV/AIDS is not a «gay» disease. After all, promiscuity has been known to exist in straight people as well, eh? I can't imagine why anyone would act so recklessly as to sleep around unprotected, regardless of gender and orientation, but I'm aware that it is an even larger problem in some gay communities than average. That's not typically gay nor representative of homos everywhere, though. What it is is typically fantastically stupid and representative of morons everywhere.

[RXS]

In college, I worked in a theater building sets. My boss and many of my coworkers were gay, and I had very close, personal friendships with many of them. I also waited tables in college, and of course met many gay people in that job too. Same thing happened there in terms of personal relationships. We had many drunken nights in the bars debating these same issues, and we never lost respect for each other in the process, even if there were some hard feelings from time to time.

 

As i read this, I kept waiting for something along the lines of, "Like, one time I accidentally touched a guys penis.........with my anus........a couple times a week for a whole year".

PHEWW!!! Was I ever glad to be wrong You had me going there for a second Indy!

 

[Kitty!]

LOL.

 

The majority of gay men are the ones out of control. Cause my friend is very picky when choosing a guy he wants to have a relationship with. And he is not promiscuos like that. But ive seen some of them like basically going at it with just anyone, which is why most gay men are highly at risk. But this has to do more with being promiscuos, cause not to change topic or to sound racist, but i have read on magazines that in black people, they are number one when it comes to being infected with AIDS. Pls correct me if im wrong. I remember that hispanics were in 3rd place on this one. They aparently think with their pipi instead with their heads, which is why they also make kids everywhere and then go to the maury show for a paternity test. Theres a saying that men will go as far the women lets them...

[Caip]

The "gay men hump everything" is silly since, as KNIX already pointed out that applies to almost all men, not just gays

 

Theres a saying that men will go as far the women lets them...

Not to sound sexist, but whose fault is it then?

[Kitty!]

The womens actually. But most of them fall for guys who think by saying pretty things can get laid. Not all girls are smart enough to detect "easy" guys.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Kitty!