Nature vs. Nurture

[Kitty!]

Hm, so let me get this straight, some believe that they are born gay, but to me, how can u be born gay? Why the rest of ppl are not born gay? Why they making studies to try and find some type of explanation? How can i put this in a way that its not offensive... you are not born gay, because being gay its unnatural. Being gay is a choice, naturally, were born as a female and male, boys have sticks, we girls have holes. U dont see a third gender here ppl. Logically, naturally, and physically, u boys put the stick inside the hole, so that tells me, that these 2 genders were created for a reason. To have sex and enjoy the moment, and to procreate and multiply (have kids). So i dont think naturally, gay ppl were meant to be born gay, they are gay because they want to be gay, they like ppl from the same gender, and thats how they feel. Im not saying theres something wrong with gay people, and im sry if i offended anyone, but think about it, it makes sense. And im not saying that gay ppl are unnatural and that makes them weirdos. NO, just in case, dont put words in my mouth, im just trying to use my logical.

[FzyBunnySliprs]

Hm, so let me get this straight, some believe that they are born gay, but to me, how can u be born gay? Why the rest of ppl are not born gay?

 

It's called genetics. It's the same reason some people are good at sports, and others may not be. It's why some people are intelligent, and others have to work really hard to get out a logical sentence.

 

you are not born gay, because being gay its unnatural. Being gay is a choice, naturally, were born as a female and male, boys have sticks, we girls have holes.

 

Thanks for the anatomy lesson. It was very informative.

 

Im not saying theres something wrong with gay people, and im sry if i offended anyone, but think about it, it makes sense. And im not saying that gay ppl are unnatural and that makes them weirdos. NO, just in case, dont put words in my mouth, im just trying to use my logical.

 

Um which part was supposed to make sense? The part where you say that gay people are not unnatural, even though you said they were earlier in you post?

[Kitty!]

I dont want gay ppl to think i say they weird, thats why i said that. Its not weird being gay, its just a choice and everyone is entitled to do whatever they want with their lives. But im just saying that male and female is how its meant to be for those reasons mentioned.

[Triggerhappy]

I do believe that circumstance can cause one to choose (subconsciously, of course) a gay lifestyle. How many of your gay friends had "normal" childhoods? Be honest, please.

 

Okay, this really ticks me off when I see people use this word, so I have to please say: DEFINE "normal childhoods." And for that matter, just define "normal." Normal is a point of view, an opinion. Obviously your definition of "normal" doesn't appear to be the same as others, but please humor us by giving us your definition because I'd love to hear it.

 

Can you "prove" that having sex with your grandmother is wrong?

 

Actually I can. Having sex with a relative is insestious. Gay sex perhaps could be insestious, but in most cases I don't think they are. While I consider both to be equally disgusting, gay sex is no more closer to insest than gay sex.

 

It's called genetics. It's the same reason some people are good at sports, and others may not be. It's why some people are intelligent, and others have to work really hard to get out a logical sentence.

 

To retort to that, people don't just come walking out of the whom dribbling a basketball or kicking a soccer across the room like a champ. No, some people may tend to be naturally (whether genes are involved or not) at sports, they must also practice and learn in order to build on their abilities. Just because someone may have naturally gay tendencies disregarding the reasons, doesn't mean they are automatically gay. People have and do switch back and forth, confused you know.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Hmm, you saying RXS is a racist and a sexist is not lowering "the tone of the discussion"? Again, liberals can get away with anything, but conservatives must be attacked as bigots. Thanks for proving my point, goo.

I'm saying the way he presents it could make him look that way and he might want to clarify that. Stop acting all prosecuted and come up with something other than *hyperbole* and other forms of comparisons. Give some actual reasons. What bad effects will giving gay people equal rights have? What is actually wrong with gay people? Explain. Substantiate.

 

Also, for those saying gay behaviour cannot be natural; homosexual behaviour has been observed in a number of different species in nature.

Plus, people are not just either 100% straight or 100% gay. There are bisexual people, asexual people, transgendered people, etc. etc. etc. Gay people are not a different species - they're part of the same spectrum we all are part of.

[RXS]

Actually I can. Having sex with a relative is insestious. Gay sex perhaps could be insestious, but in most cases I don't think they are. While I consider both to be equally disgusting, gay sex is no more closer to insest than gay sex.

You haven't proved it is wrong.....only restated what it is.

[Triggerhappy]

You haven't proved it is wrong.....only restated what it is.

Well, insest leads to retardation as well as many other disformations to the child that may result in close family sex. Gay sex, which has no result of that ever happening seems to be at least, the lesser of the two evils I guess is what I'm trying to say. Of course there is the problem of aids on occasion I suppose, but at least it's a problem with the gays ONLY and won't result in a kid. If you don't see the difference, well.... I guess it was obvious to me why it was "wrong", but then again you may have to define to me what exactly classifies as "wrong" RXS.

 

Let me ask you though, is it more "right" to let a newborn be raised by two straight heterosexuals who are known serial killers or a very non-violent loving gay couple?

 

I know that's an extreme question, but I just want to know where you draw the line at "right" and "wrong" if at all, so I can get a better picture at how you think. Like I said, "normal" can be put into the same catagory as "right" and "wrong" because they are opinion based words.

 

I'm saying the way he presents it could make him look that way and he might want to clarify that. Stop acting all prosecuted and come up with something other than *hyperbole* and other forms of comparisons. Give some actual reasons. What bad effects will giving gay people equal rights have? What is actually wrong with gay people? Explain. Substantiate.

 

No freakin crap, either say something or don't. You can't just say stuff like "liberals can get away with anything, but conservatives must be attacked as bigots." by itself and NOT be attacked as a bigot. If you've actually got something to say on the topic bring it to the dinner table already.

 

The leadership of the Episcopal church a couple of years back decided it would be a good idea to allow openly gay folks to be bishops in the church. Would they allow openly adulterous people to be bishops, too?

 

Do child molesting bishops count as "openly adulterous people?" Well, I guess it doesn't matter since that's never been a problem huh?

[[FF5]Knix]

Ahhh nothing like typing on this subject with Friday night work brain, however I've tried to respond a few times this week, yet had to delete my post everytime due to something coming up.

 

So I gave this question "What is so wrong about homosexuality?" or "What is the risk that worries you?" some thought, and here is what I have come up with.

 

The world as society as we know is is built of laws. Not the laws that are passed by judges, or by clans in a video game, or laws of a family, but natural laws that require obiding by them for life to continue.

 

The topic of this post was Nature vs. Nurture, and there is a reason for this.

 

If it is found that homosexuality, transgenderism, pedophelia, necrophelia, etc is caused by say effects of certain innoculations in infants, stress to the mother during certain periods of gestation, number of males born to a mother (all btw theories studied and in certain tests providing evidence of linking to greater rates of homosexual occurance), then maybe there would be means to offset, or lessen the percentages of anormal sexual practices.

 

But KNIX, why do we need to do all this? Who cares for the reason of why you are straight and so and so is gay? You give so and so the same rights as you, to marry, work, fight, adopt, bestow, etc and you will see no harm will come of it!

 

Yes, possible, but here is my concern.

 

Getting back to the laws of nature, procreation in itself is a major pillor. In our society the ideal (IDEAL not neccesity, but IDEAL) is for a man and women to find each other attractice, date, get engaged, marry, copulate (with each other) and have a child/children. Why? Who made up this unwritten rule of "optimal existance"? While I'm sure this has been done since homo-sapians first existed, I also feel that we got to this point as nature requires this in that it offers the best opportunity for we as humans to sustain our existance.

 

So all physical/mental/behavioral conditions that work against this idea... homosexuality, rape, pedophelia, sado masichism, beastiality, sexual addiction, chemical addiction, genetic defects, etc, etc, etc, should be resolved to be rectified, as these conditions and thousands of more that I can add to nothing to benefit the continuation of life on this planet .

 

KNIX! You evil F--k, you sound like a Nazi! You not only group homosexuals with rapist and child molesters, but also suggest that they be "rectified", you mean kill them right?! Steralize them right? Should we start goose stepping as well?

 

No, thats not what I meant. What I wrote were conditoins in society some appartently benign (like homosexuality), and some abhorant (rape, pedophelia, et) each working against the ideal put in place by nature to sustain and prolong life.

 

So getting back to homosexuality, if causatoin can be determined through science and eventualy preventative measures put in place to nullify its future occurance (currently suggest at 10% of the world's population), why would this be a bad thing?

 

I ask what would we be losing by generation over gernation eliminating homosexuality in our society? We life on this planet be less interesting? Does homosexuality in certain ways inhance the life experience?

 

Now do the other incredibly more horrible examples of conditions which threaten society which I listed above, not also require research to rectify? Of course, more so then what I'm suggesting with homosexuality by far. The reason why I speak on this topic, is that as shown by posts in this topic so far, many people feel there is nothing wrong with it's practice. That is not a sexual condition that requires fixing. That is doesn't even warrant LOOKING INTO IT"S CAUSE.

 

But KNIX!!! 50 years ago, Jim Crow laws, and segregation where common place in the south, and not 15 years ago common place in South Africa! Until the early part of the 20th centurty women were not allowed to even vote in the US! Don't you think that in 20 years we will look back and say "What were we thinking?" in terms of the way homosexuals are treated by our society?

 

Bias against a person in limiting a persons opportunity for sucess in life, whether by forcing them into ghettos, physical oppression, lack of rights in voting where the reason for doing so is based on bias, narciscism, or other reasons which are of no risk to society is not acceptable. However again in this topic of homosexuality we are not dealing with differences obvious in their origin or threat to societal continuation. People are known to be born black, asian, European, Albino, Latino, Curley Haired, Green eyed, Left handed, big nosed, club footed, lactose intollerant, allergic to cat dander, female, etc, etc. None of these can be proven or even suggested logically to have any negative effects on society or our ideal or our existance. Just the opposite, they augment the life experience. Homosexuality however has both NOT proven in its orgination, but now also (as required of me by Goo), now been given as a possible threat to society in the future.

 

Just because there are many many wonderfull, good hearted people in this world that happen to practice homosexuality, that heterosexuals should be looked down upon or labled as bigots for suggesting there at least be research and yes even treatement of this condition. Thereby offering opportunity for all people to be hetersexual, and to assure future wonderfull people that they will be.

 

P.S. No way in heck i'm spell checking this

Edited August 4, 2007 by [FF5]Knix

[Triggerhappy]

Ahhh nothing like typing on this subject with Friday night work brain, however I've tried to respond a few times this week, yet had to delete my post everytime due to something coming up.

 

So I gave this question "What is so wrong about homosexuality?" or "What is the risk that worries you?" some thought, and here is what I have come up with.

 

The world as society as we know is is built of laws. Not the laws that are passed by judges, or by clans in a video game, or laws of a family, but natural laws that require obiding by them for life to continue.

 

The topic of this post was Nature vs. Nurture, and there is a reason for this.

 

If it is found that homosexuality, transgenderism, pedophelia, necrophelia, etc is caused by say effects of certain innoculations in infants, stress to the mother during certain periods of gestation, number of males born to a mother (all btw theories studied and in certain tests providing evidence of linking to greater rates of homosexual occurance), then maybe there would be means to offset, or lessen the percentages of anormal sexual practices.

 

But KNIX, why do we need to do all this? Who cares for the reason of why you are straight and so and so is gay? You give so and so the same rights as you, to marry, work, fight, adopt, bestow, etc and you will see no harm will come of it!

 

Yes, possible, but here is my concern.

 

Getting back to the laws of nature, procreation in itself is a major pillor. In our society the ideal (IDEAL not neccesity, but IDEAL) is for a man and women to find each other attractice, date, get engaged, marry, copulate (with each other) and have a child/children. Why? Who made up this unwritten rule of "optimal existance"? While I'm sure this has been done since homo-sapians first existed, I also feel that we got to this point as nature requires this in that it offers the best opportunity for we as humans to sustain our existance.

 

So all physical/mental/behavioral conditions that work against this idea... homosexuality, rape, pedophelia, sado masichism, beastiality, sexual addiction, chemical addiction, genetic defects, etc, etc, etc, should be resolved to be rectified, as these conditions and thousands of more that I can add to nothing to benefit the continuation of life on this planet .

 

KNIX! You evil F--k, you sound like a Nazi! You not only group homosexuals with rapist and child molesters, but also suggest that they be "rectified", you mean kill them right?! Steralize them right? Should we start goose stepping as well?

 

No, thats not what I meant. What I wrote were conditoins in society some appartently benign (like homosexuality), and some abhorant (rape, pedophelia, et) each working against the ideal put in place by nature to sustain and prolong life.

 

So getting back to homosexuality, if causatoin can be determined through science and eventualy preventative measures put in place to nullify its future occurance (currently suggest at 10% of the world's population), why would this be a bad thing?

 

I ask what would we be losing by generation over gernation eliminating homosexuality in our society? We life on this planet be less interesting? Does homosexuality in certain ways inhance the life experience?

 

Now do the other incredibly more horrible examples of conditions which threaten society which I listed above, not also require research to rectify? Of course, more so then what I'm suggesting with homosexuality by far. The reason why I speak on this topic, is that as shown by posts in this topic so far, many people feel there is nothing wrong with it's practice. That is not a sexual condition that requires fixing. That is doesn't even warrant LOOKING INTO IT"S CAUSE.

 

But KNIX!!! 50 years ago, Jim Crow laws, and segregation where common place in the south, and not 15 years ago common place in South Africa! Until the early part of the 20th centurty women were not allowed to even vote in the US! Don't you think that in 20 years we will look back and say "What were we thinking?" in terms of the way homosexuals are treated by our society?

 

Bias against a person in limiting a persons opportunity for sucess in life, whether by forcing them into ghettos, physical oppression, lack of rights in voting where the reason for doing so is based on bias, narciscism, or other reasons which are of no risk to society is not acceptable. However again in this topic of homosexuality we are not dealing with differences obvious in their origin or threat to societal continuation. People are known to be born black, asian, European, Albino, Latino, Curley Haired, Green eyed, Left handed, big nosed, club footed, lactose intollerant, allergic to cat dander, female, etc, etc. None of these can be proven or even suggested logically to have any negative effects on society or our ideal or our existance. Just the opposite, they augment the life experience. Homosexuality however has both NOT proven in its orgination, but now also (as required of me by Goo), now been given as a possible threat to society in the future.

 

Just because there are many many wonderfull, good hearted people in this world that happen to practice homosexuality, that heterosexuals should be looked down upon or labled as bigots for suggesting there at least be research and yes even treatement of this condition. Thereby offering opportunity for all people to be hetersexual, and to assure future wonderfull people that they will be.

 

P.S. No way in heck i'm spell checking this

I totally agree with you about the laws of nature bit, and I think there's no denying that it is very truthful.

 

I do think, however, your claim that homosexuality "threatens" our existence is beyond paranoia. Firstly, have you stopped to consider the fact that not only is there plenty of offspring being born every day in this world, but there is in fact TOO MANY!!! While the christians believe we "should be fruitful and multiply", we (the world over) have become an extremely overpopulated world with many children. Just because a select few of our VERY LARGE population of people have the "homosexuality syndrom," doesn't mean that we need to overreact and think that our MASSIVE population is anywhere near being threatened. No, there are far worse things like NUCLEAR BOMBS just off the top of my head that threaten us, not gays.

 

I would even go as far as to say that sometimes I think it's not such a bad thing to have some gay people around to NOT contribute to the already over populated world. It's not like homosexuality is a plague or virus that will spread and multiply to any and everyone. There will always be straight people who have "natural urges," and that's not going to change, nor has it or will it. You act like homosexuality is a new thing, but it's not. It's a "problem" that has spanned across time as far as we know, and yet....here we all are, still here and reproducing as usual.

 

So getting back to homosexuality, if causatoin can be determined through science and eventualy preventative measures put in place to nullify its future occurance (currently suggest at 10% of the world's population), why would this be a bad thing?

 

I know this answer is getting old...but seriously, wouldn't it make more sense to worry about eliminating rapist and molesters etc. before we mention gays as long as we're talking hypothetical here?

 

I ask what would we be losing by generation over gernation eliminating homosexuality in our society? We life on this planet be less interesting? Does homosexuality in certain ways inhance the life experience?

 

Well, if we eliminated it we certainly wouldn't have it as a topic to argue about! Can't we just get rid of "evil" and just leave "good" too, wouldn't that make life more interesting as well?

 

now been given as a possible threat to society in the future.

 

Like I said above, you're overreacting. Unless gay people start mass murdering heterosexuals, I think the world can sleep safe.

 

Thereby offering opportunity for all people to be hetersexual, and to assure future wonderfull people that they will be.

Well, as I'm sure you already know, most gay people have no desire to just "turn" straight like a flip of a switch, and the only other way of them changing their minds is by force whether genetically altering DNA (which is extremely wrong to do too), or forcing them to while being gay. If that's what you're suggesting, then good luck because I doubt most people will go for that.

 

Oh, and again I have to ask since it seems to be avoided.....what about lesbians? I assume we're talking about female gayness as well, but so far I've gathered that the main complaint FROM THE GUYS is male homosexuality. So are you really against homosexuality FOR REAL, or just grossed out by the guys doing it? I know how this works, but I'm really interested in hearing your answer. Would you be willing to never ever again (if you have before) watch and/or be attracted to lesbians or lesbian sex for the rest of your life to prove your point? Think about it, and don't lie!!!

Edited August 4, 2007 by Triggerhappy

[FzyBunnySliprs]

I do think, however, your claim that homosexuality "threatens" our existence is beyond paranoia. Firstly, have you stopped to consider the fact that not only is there plenty of offspring being born every day in this world, but there is in fact TOO MANY!!! While the christians believe we "should be fruitful and multiply", we (the world over) have become an extremely overpopulated world with many children. [/qoute]

 

Agreed, thanks for saving me from having to type this Trig.

[Caip]

I'm saying the way he presents it could make him look that way and he might want to clarify that. Stop acting all prosecuted and come up with something other than *hyperbole* and other forms of comparisons. Give some actual reasons. What bad effects will giving gay people equal rights have? What is actually wrong with gay people? Explain. Substantiate.

 

As expected, they can't

[Kitty!]

Well I agree with u Trig, is not like gay ppl should be our #1 concern right now, but we cant forget about this issue either. BUT KNIX has a point. About the world being over populated is kinda true, but doesnt someone die every 5 seconds? While some are born, others die, its the way of life. Other thing, child molestors, if u realize, they can be gay. Example: I have seen many news of men 'molesting' young boys, for some reason, they enjoy molesting children from the same sex as them. Why? Is it possible that they have this gay "fantasy" or "urge"? And who would be best to raise a child, 2 serial killers or a loving gay couple? I think neither should be, im not saying oh gay parents are bad, but cmon, THINK about this, it can influence a whole lot on the kid's sexuality. Straight parents can have gay kids, yes i know, but imagine u growing up with gay parents, u would see it like something ok, natural, and even maybe be gay urself. Its true u have to accept urself as who u are, but imagine what every child has to go thru for being gay, all the humilliation because of ignorant ppl. Im not in favor with gays, but not because of that im gonna treat them like crap or insult them. But again, not all ppl are accepting like most of us are. Treatment? I dont think treatment can cure gay. This is an emotional, maybe somehting deeper issue. Something must be going on to cause this. If not, then wth causes some1 to be gay? Could it be how the person was raised? experiences? curiosity that led to that?

Edited August 6, 2007 by Kitty!

[Triggerhappy]

Well I agree with u Trig, is not like gay ppl should be our #1 concern right now, but we cant forget about this issue either. BUT KNIX has a point. About the world being over populated is kinda true, but doesnt someone die every 5 seconds? While some are born, others die, its the way of life. Other thing, child molestors, if u realize, they can be gay. Example: I have seen many news of men 'molesting' young boys, for some reason, they enjoy molesting children from the same sex as them. Why? Is it possible that they have this gay "fantasy" or "urge"? And who would be best to raise a child, 2 serial killers or a loving gay couple? I think neither should be, im not saying oh gay parents are bad, but cmon, THINK about this, it can influence a whole lot on the kid's sexuality. Straight parents can have gay kids, yes i know, but imagine u growing up with gay parents, u would see it like something ok, natural, and even maybe be gay urself. Its true u have to accept urself as who u are, but imagine what every child has to go thru for being gay, all the humilliation because of ignorant ppl. Im not in favor with gays, but not because of that im gonna treat them like crap or insult them. But again, not all ppl are accepting like most of us are. Treatment? I dont think treatment can cure gay. This is an emotional, maybe somehting deeper issue. Something must be going on to cause this. If not, then wth causes some1 to be gay? Could it be how the person was raised? experiences? curiosity that led to that?

 

Hey, good points here kitty. I have some retorts though.

 

but doesnt someone die every 5 seconds?

 

Probably, but children are probably born maybe NOT quite that often, but still fast enough to keep up.

 

Even if they didn't though, it would still be quite a while before we noticed the population drop below average, seeing how we have so many people everywhere.

 

Other thing, child molestors, if u realize, they can be gay. Example: I have seen many news of men 'molesting' young boys, for some reason, they enjoy molesting children from the same sex as them.

 

I know they can, but there are also a lot of molesters who are straight. There are women molesters who take advantage of little boys too...do you hear anyone seriously complaining besides the mothers? I think you'll find that a lot, if not most gays aren't child molesters.

 

And who would be best to raise a child, 2 serial killers or a loving gay couple? I think neither should be

 

Well I know that. I was reading your post before, but you didn't really answer my question. If you had to decide between the two, who would you pick and why? BTW, I'm not saying that I prefer either being parents over straights, but I in all honesty would say that kids would be way better off with gay parents than serial killers...unless of course they're nice serial killers.

 

u would see it like something ok, natural, and even maybe be gay urself.

True there's always that possibility, but if you're like some kids at a certain age you might tend to rebel and be nothing like your parents whether out of spite or because you honestly hate who and what they are. That happens with straight people too.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that of all the kids that I've heard of thus far (just the ones I know of) who are raised of gay couples (male/or female) haven't actually "turned out" gay.

 

but imagine what every child has to go thru for being gay, all the humilliation because of ignorant ppl.

 

Oh I have. It's true they probably will in fact, but so do kids who live with straight parents. I being one of those kids who has suffered plenty of humiliation from others for not always fitting in, and yet neither I or my parents are gay. So do handicapped and other kids who don't fit the "normal" standards.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Triggerhappy

[Caip]

Well I agree with u Trig, is not like gay ppl should be our #1 concern right now, but we cant forget about this issue either. BUT KNIX has a point. About the world being over populated is kinda true, but doesnt someone die every 5 seconds? While some are born, others die, its the way of life.

 

The Lion King told us about the circle of life, thank you. What's your point?

 

According to Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know) the top factors affecting a country's mortality rate are:

 

* Age of country's population

* Nutrition levels

* Standards of diet and housing

* Access to clean drinking water

* Hygiene levels

* Levels of infectious diseases

* Levels of violent crime

* Conflicts

* Number of doctors

 

 

Other thing, child molestors, if u realize, they can be gay. Example: I have seen many news of men 'molesting' young boys, for some reason, they enjoy molesting children from the same sex as them. Why? Is it possible that they have this gay "fantasy" or "urge"?

 

Again someone connecting being gay to molesting children...step off that slippery slope already. Gayness and pedophilia are not the same.

 

imagine u growing up with gay parents, u would see it like something ok, natural, and even maybe be gay urself

 

Many people think being gay is ok, without having gay parents. Anyway, as long as there is no definite prove that you CANNOT be born gay your argumentation fails. At least we who claim that a person is born gay are backed up by gay people who claim that they in fact were born gay.

 

Its true u have to accept urself as who u are, but imagine what every child has to go thru for being gay, all the humilliation because of ignorant ppl

 

So who's to blame? Gay people or ignorant people?

 

If not, then wth causes some1 to be gay? Could it be how the person was raised? experiences? curiosity that led to that?

 

Fuzzy pointed this out to you earlier in this topic: curiosity is NOT a cause. Curiosity is simply a way of figuring out whether you are gay or not.

 

 

Just because there are many many wonderfull, good hearted people in this world that happen to practice homosexuality, that heterosexuals should be looked down upon or labled as bigots for suggesting there at least be research and yes even treatement of this condition. Thereby offering opportunity for all people to be hetersexual, and to assure future wonderfull people that they will be.

 

Treatment, condition...how on earth can you claim that homosexuality is a condition that can be treated? Please explain.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

The 'purpose' of humanity is not just procreation. And the purpose in life of a human being as part of that is not just to procreate. People can contribute many more things to humanity than just sperm and eggs. Humans are not animals. We have culture, science, philosophy. Many of the great contributors to which have been and will be gay.

 

Apart from that, according to your logic infertile straight people should be done away with as well. What you're basically advocating is eugenics, with the addition of homosexuality as a sort of disease. All because you cannot see any other values other than simple procreation.

 

Gay people have been around for anyone as anyone can remember and yet humanity has managed to grow and grow and grow as far as even stretching the resources of the planet. Giving gay people more rights will not increase the number of gay people (though it might decrease the number of loveless sham marriages). In fact, allowing them to adopt will give more children a better start in life.

[Kitty!]

Very true, lots of children are in need of loving parents and gay couples can provide that. They can do it if they want, but why they want it legal? They dont need a frikin paper telling them they can live happily ever after. straight couples have that option, and they live miserable, so if all gay ppl want is to be happy and loved, why they want to get married? Adoption i think its ok, i mean there are many pros and cons. i personally im not ok with the whole idea of kids having gay parents, but who cares what i think? im just another fish in the sea. I know for a fact if i find out right now, that one of my parents is gay, i would flip, maybe even go crazy, because i have my beliefs and all, but then again, gay ppl are nice, funny, good people that just want to be accepted in this society. But look honestly deep inside, would u really be ok having a gay child? or a parent? I know i wouldnt want that. I most definetly wouldnt be ok with it. yes u say im on their side, but u truly are? i dont have to hide who i am for people to like me, if u dont like me, too bad, its not like u pay my bills or my rent, i still believe gay ppl should stay just where they are, living together, be with each other and thats it, no marriage. adoption is another story. Sonic, yes we didnt come to this world just to procreate, but we can for a reason. And yes i do believe gay is not a dicease, its a choice. Its something u really want and feel strongly about. One thing is for sure, they make legal gay marriages, nothing else will surprise me.

[Caip]

why they want it legal?

 

Why do straight couples wanna marry? Gay couples want to be allowed to marry to show their love and to have the same social benefits straight couples have. They want to be treated as equals and not as social outcasts. We are not talking about religious marriage, keep that in mind.

 

Sonic, yes we didnt come to this world just to procreate, but we can for a reason.

 

And that reason would be? = What's your point?

 

 

Would you mind to reply a question I asked in a previous post?

Its true u have to accept urself as who u are, but imagine what every child has to go thru for being gay, all the humilliation because of ignorant ppl

 

So who's to blame? Gay people or ignorant people?

[{GD}Independent]

Okay, this really ticks me off when I see people use this word, so I have to please say: DEFINE "normal childhoods." And for that matter, just define "normal." Normal is a point of view, an opinion. Obviously your definition of "normal" doesn't appear to be the same as others, but please humor us by giving us your definition because I'd love to hear it.

 

Traditional. One loving, biological father. One loving, biological mother. No abuse, no neglect, no divorce. Stability. No molesting uncle. Am I so weird that I think that's the normal, ideal environment in which to raise children?!?!

 

[{GD}Independent]

Actually I can. Having sex with a relative is insestious.

 

 

Trig, that's the most inane argument I've ever heard. That's equivalent to saying "Having sex with a member of the same gender is gay." You say incest is wrong, i say gay sex is wrong, but neither of us has proven that either act is wrong.

Edited August 6, 2007 by {SFI}Independent

[{GD}Independent]

I'm saying the way he presents it could make him look that way and he might want to clarify that. Stop acting all prosecuted and come up with something other than *hyperbole* and other forms of comparisons. Give some actual reasons. What bad effects will giving gay people equal rights have? What is actually wrong with gay people? Explain. Substantiate.

 

What I'm saying is that no one can prove homosexuality is wrong! This is not a math problem! By way of emphasizing that you can't prove it's wrong, I asked you all to prove that incest is wrong, and no one could do that either! But I'm somehow sure that we all know it's wrong, anyway!!!!!!

 

Also, for those saying gay behaviour cannot be natural; homosexual behaviour has been observed in a number of different species in nature.

Plus, people are not just either 100% straight or 100% gay. There are bisexual people, asexual people, transgendered people, etc. etc. etc. Gay people are not a different species - they're part of the same spectrum we all are part of.

 

Yeah, well, sometimes sheep are born with 2 heads. Is that natural? Or is it evidence that something has gone horribly wrong?

[Kitty!]

Let me answer Caip's question because its making him anxious...

Whos to blame? theres no one to blame. this is not a blame game where we point fingers whos fault is it. Is it every gay ppl's parents fault that they are gay? those ppl that attack gays is because they have poor education about the subject, or maybe they havent been raised near gay ppl, and being near one makes them feel uneasy, maybe they make fun of gays to be "cool" in front of their peers, the list can go on and on. im so sry, but NO NO NO. Gay marriages shouldnt be allowed. But i do believe its gonna happen anyways, did u see Disneyworld? Now they have gay parades, and gay ppl can get married there! Disneyworld, a place for kids, that proves that those ppl have lost their marbles for allowing such a thing. Kids are too small and innocent to understand such complicated lifestyle.

[Caip]

Traditional. One loving, biological father. One loving, biological mother. No abuse, no neglect, no divorce. Stability. No molesting uncle. Am I so weird that I think that's the normal, ideal environment in which to raise children?!?!

 

Some traditions are worth having, others are not. What you describe is a concept, an ideal, as you said. Sometimes traditions should be replaced or in the case of families have to be broadened. What about adoption? Adoption is certainly not "traditional" and therefor unnatural, not normal. not acceptable?

 

What I'm saying is that no one can prove homosexuality is wrong! This is not a math problem! By way of emphasizing that you can't prove it's wrong, I asked you all to prove that incest is wrong, and no one could do that either! But I'm somehow sure that we all know it's wrong, anyway!!!!!!

 

Funny, I pointed that out in an earlier post. I also said that it is a question of moral values and of where to draw the line and that this line can only be drawn in the course of a discourse (no pun intended). The only argument people, who are against gay marriage, gay parents etc have is that they think being gay is unnatural which they cannot prove. Homosexuality has always been a part of human nature, so why is it unnatural?

Tradition is a rather weak argument since mankind evolves and in this process always challenges the status quo.

 

Incest is wrong, this is the outcome of discourse. As long as this outcome isn't being challenged (by enough people of course) incest will, for a large part of mankind, remain ethically wrong. Anyway, incest is not the topic here, but merely a desperate attempt to come up with any argument that supports your opinion, since you don't seem to be able to come up with some real ones...

 

Yeah, well, sometimes sheep are born with 2 heads. Is that natural? Or is it evidence that something has gone horribly wrong?

 

What the hell kind of argument is THAT? Oh I know, another useless *hyperbole*... Again, what about some real arguments?

 

 

theres no one to blame. this is not a blame game where we point fingers whos fault is it.

 

If ignorant people harass gay people there is no one to blame?

[FzyBunnySliprs]

but why they want it legal? They dont need a frikin paper telling them they can live happily ever after.

 

In the US, a wife is entitled to 35%-50% (on average) of her deceased husband's estate even if she is not provided for in his will. An unmarried partner often can't even get anything even with a valid will if the biological family contests the will. Many companies now provide benefits for an employee's partner, although it isn't mandated. But the US government doesn't offer any social security benefits to domestic partners. Those two reasons alone are more than enough reason to fight for equal rights for homosexuals.

 

 

 

[Triggerhappy]

Traditional. One loving, biological father. One loving, biological mother. No abuse, no neglect, no divorce. Stability. No molesting uncle. Am I so weird that I think that's the normal, ideal environment in which to raise children?!?!

Traditional? Pfffft. I was never a big fan of traditions. I know where you're getting at though. Parents don't need to be biological to be loving either, or to be good parents. Stability? Hahahahahaha. Again, absolutely nothing to do with their sexuality or gender.

No molesting uncle?!!! Who ever said anything about uncles? Does that usually happen with gays?

 

Are you so wierd that you think that's normal?

 

Well no you're not wierd, just a typical white male who can't let go of their "traditions" because they think they're the "right" way and the ONLY way.

 

Trig, that's the most inane argument I've ever heard. That's equivalent to saying "Having sex with a member of the same gender is gay." You say incest is wrong, i say gay sex is wrong, but neither of us has proven that either act is wrong.

 

The point I was trying to make was that in my opinion, I thought that "insest" was "wrong" to me, also trying to make my point that the terms "right" and "wrong" are strictly opinions of what we know to be true.

 

You can't say whether or not insest or homosexuality is "more right" or "more wrong" because it's an argument with no facts, just beliefs.

 

What I'm saying is that no one can prove homosexuality is wrong! This is not a math problem! By way of emphasizing that you can't prove it's wrong, I asked you all to prove that incest is wrong, and no one could do that either! But I'm somehow sure that we all know it's wrong, anyway!!!!!!

 

Again, that's your problem, you can't look at these things a purely black and white, because they're points of view. Every time you bring in the words "right" and "wrong" the argument is opinion based.

 

Yeah, well, sometimes sheep are born with 2 heads. Is that natural? Or is it evidence that something has gone horribly wrong?

 

Both actually! As we all know, genetic mistakes and such have happened to many different species over the course of time and although we don't consider it to be "normal" or it's a "mistake", it continues to happen on a fairly consistent basis. So guess what, that means it must be a part of nature. Just because you may not understand why something is, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. While we know that the majority of offspring appear fine, there is a reason for the deformations that keep appearing frequently. Maybe you don't believe this Indy, but I believe there's a reason for everything whether we know the reasons for them or not.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Triggerhappy

[Kitty!]

Ok legally, i understand that married couple get benefits and such, i see ur point. But same sex marriages its just not right. Its gonna happen, and theres nothing ppl can do about it. But its wrong. And caip, theres no one to blame, get over it. lets say i wasnt raised around gay ppl, then one day, i have a gay roomate, how will i react? I would be a little uncomfortable, but nice anyways. but guesss what??? Not everyone has to be like me, every1 is different and unique, so that means u cant make ppl feel the same way as u do. So stop it. other ppl will be like "whatever" while other may just act rude, or simply mean. Everyone has their own personalities. trig, the traditional way is not the only way ur right, but its the way it was meant to be. When u get married, u have expectations, which are, love each other, and naturally, later on, have kids. raise the children to be decent human beings, give them love, love and etc etc. Im so sry, but i do want a traditional life, be happy, and not have these kind of issues in my family.