Nature vs. Nurture

[[FF5]Knix]

I know this topic has been covered in the past, however as the poll in the linked article, opinions change over time.

 

I don't know why, but I find it facinating to view different points, polls, and scientfic papers regarding the subject of homosexuality.

 

Besides the expected remarks and suggestions to the reasoning behind this (yeah yeah bring it), I think it is for 2 reasons. Firstly, I have always been facinated by the way the human mind works. What makes one person "average" in their achievements, while another person can grow up to be Bill Gates. Why do some people run headlong into confrontation, while others flee at the first sign of trouble (fight vs. flight). The topic of ones sexuality is a core topic of who we are. I get upset with both sides of issue when one side says "It's no big deal, we're just like everybody else." the same as when the other side says "Homosexuals are in step with pedofiles and rapists, and will burn in eternal damnation for their crimes!"

 

Both responses in my opinion are both naive and ignorant.

 

The 2nd reason for my interest in the subject is because as you all may know about me....not much grey to my views, pretty black and white. On this topic, I straddle the fence. Whether the question is...

 

Are you born this way? If so should science work on available options to offer a person the ability to become hetersexual?

Should homosexuals be allowed to openly fight in the US Military?

Should they be allowed to enter Marriage, Unions, with the same legal benefits but no title, or neither?

Should they be allowed to adopt?

Should they be allowed to user doner eggs, sperm, carriers to have children?

 

 

I'm confident that there will be both sides of the issue for the above questions, and the many others I have not mentioned. I would like to suggest we be as honest in our opinions as we possibly can, respect the opinions of others (or at least their right to have them), and ask pertinent questions so as to possibly help others form an opinion. However this being the UnityHQ forum, I am not holding my breath.

 

Anyhow respond if interested.

 

Here is the article...

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/26/sexuality/index.html

 

 

[{GD}Independent]

Surprise! I'm going to keep my mouth shut out of respect for my homosexual friends in this community. Unless of course they beg me to share!

 

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

I don't think the nature vs nurture discussion is something for these boards. It's something for science to find out.

 

Though I would like to add one note to that first part. When people say 'We're just like everyone else.', they don't mean they dress, act, etc. like everyone else, they mean they're morally worth the same as everyone else. It's a variation on 'If you prick us, do we not bleed?', or, as Mick Jagger said about foreign women, 'They're all pink on the inside'.

 

Are you born this way? If so should science work on available options to offer a person the ability to become hetersexual?

In the transhumanist future, it will be probably be possible to choose gender, skin colour, enhanced muscles, lungs, grow horns, tails, or whatever you can think of else. Though I'd say there are more urgent problems to solve.

Should homosexuals be allowed to openly fight in the US Military?

There is a large number of militaries in the world where homosexuals are allowed to fight openly. It's not a problem there, so why should it be in the US?

Should they be allowed to enter Marriage, Unions, with the same legal benefits but no title, or neither?

Having lived in a country that allows gay marriages, I can report that I have not witnessed any bad results.

Should they be allowed to adopt?

The main argument I've seen against this is that the kids would be ridiculed. Which seems like a circular argument: we shouldn't normalise gay families because they're not considered normal. Again, I do not know of any bad influences on kids adopted by gay parents. Wouldn't it be a good thing if there were more families adopting children? There are still more orphans than families willing to adopt.

Should they be allowed to user doner eggs, sperm, carriers to have children?

Straight couples are allowed to, so why not gay couples? For the arguments for/against them having children, see above.

Edited July 4, 2007 by [TNT] Sonic Goo

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Now they've made god hate Ireland! Oh noes!

[FzyBunnySliprs]

IMO, homosexuality is not a disease, and therefore, no cure is necessary. I personally feel homsexuals, like heterosexuals deserve the right to protect their country, get married, adopt or have children. If science eventually finds a physiological reason that some poeple are homosexual or heterosexual, I think it is ultimately each person's right to deside if they would like to take steps to alter their sexual preference. I'm not sure I think that the insurance companies or tax payer dollars should cover the expense, but that is a seperate issue. As with everything in the world, there is a positive and a negative side to everything. I personally feel that one of the most amazing things about our world, is the way it changes and adapts. I think most people can think of one or two heterosexual couple who should never have been allowed to have children. I'll bet you can also think of a couple homosexual couples who are the most conscientious and well adjusted people you know. Most children growing up today have hurtles to face; divorce, interacial marraige, gay parents, alcoholism or abuse in the family, parents who work too much, parents who don't work, parents with gambling addictions, or internet/gaming addictions. Seriously, I think being the child of gay parents, although challenging at times, can be a much better environment that many of the current alternatives. If anyone would like to debate the free right to parenthood, I'd be happy to have that conversation. As far as this topic is concerned however, I am black & white. There is no argument here.

[SadIstic]

wow what a topic to bring into a gaming world, reminds me there r real ppl behind these clever lil names of ours. I believe its unnatural therefore predetermined not chosen. And fuzzy has quite the open minded opinion on the issue, she's right there are a lot of unfit parents of the heterosexual nature so why not give the others a chance but wow would that kid ever have a rough go of school and life until it reaches a mature age. 'Id prefer the other evils over this one , but aaah im not gonna get into it too deeply i think i've left my redneck unseen so i'll wrap it up

 

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

I believe its unnatural therefore predetermined not chosen.

 

 

THIS ISN'T LOGIC!!!

[{BAB} JJ Argus]

Wow is this a serious topic or what!

 

Are you born this way? If so should science work on available options to offer a person the ability to become hetersexual?

 

Perhaps science should make more effort into studying the intolerance people have against 'outsiders', be that race, sexuality, religion or disability to name but a few examples. Also, it might be a good idea to cure cancer, AIDS, parkinsons, MS and all the other terminal diseases before it looks at something that isnt a disease? That being said, i dont think any scientific enquiry into sexuality would be a bad thing, as it might dispell some of the myths if they cant find an 'evil gene'. Although to answer your question, i think probably nature, nurture or both may have an influence on sexuality. There was some psychological study done years ago (i forget the name) that pointed out that barely anyone is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual.

 

Should homosexuals be allowed to openly fight in the US Military?

 

Well as I come from the UK and they have done just that with our military it would seem just as bizarre to exclude homosexuals from the army as it is to keep out women or ethnic minorities. If someone wants to join the US army (although on a personal note with Mr Bush as their commander i would seriously worry about becoming cannon fodder) then if they pass the physical and mental tests, nothing else should be an issue.

 

Should they be allowed to enter Marriage, Unions, with the same legal benefits but no title, or neither?

 

Amazing really, in this day and age we think it is okay to still think that it should be up to us to determine if homosexuals should be 'allowed' to do things. Could you imagine if someone said that a black person could not marry etc? I would think it would be unnatural to stop 2 people who care that much about each other from being partners in any shape or form. Again, the UK just started same-sex partnerships a year ago and as I work right opposite Manchester City Hall, I can see enough same-sex unions taking place to make me believe that this sort of question will become a non-entity in the coming years.

 

Should they be allowed to adopt?

 

I have to agree with the others here - yes yes yes! How many children need a family? Loads. Fair enough at the moment the children may have a hard time at school for it, but i would say that has to be better for them than growing up in an orphanage with no one to care for them. And until this sort of adoption becomes commonplace, how can you expect people to consider it normal?

 

Should they be allowed to user doner eggs, sperm, carriers to have children?

 

I believe this already happens pretty much everywhere but again, so long as (like blood tests) the proper tests for illnesses etc are carried out, in the same way as is done for heterosexuals, why would it be an issue?

 

By the way Knix, i have to admire how 'open-minded' you are about peoples views about this. I might have a girlfriend, but i have a huge number of gay friends and i cant help but respect you for wanting to listen to the other side of the coin, so to speak - although i imagine that homophobia or just unease about sexuality is becoming less and less prevelant in our world today!

[{GD}Independent]

Again, I will remain silent on the topic of homosexuality. I will, however, comment on the notion of "political correctness." Since I want to be politically correct, and therefore not offend anyone, I've chosen to opt out of this discussion. You'll notice, however, that political correctness, and the desire to not offend only apply to those who would espouse traditional opinions. It doesn't matter if your stated beliefs offend those with conservative viewpoints; only those with liberal viewpoints are allowed to be offended. That's why you see such a large number of liberal posts compared to conservative posts. Conservatives are afraid to post and be called biggots. Liberals may post freely in the comfortable knowledge that they're not going to hurt anyone's feelings (since those of us with hurt feelings will remain silent), and conservatives will simply sit on their hands. That's the new world! Free speech only for liberals! All others will instantly be labeled discriminators! Pretty soon, goatrapers will be the new homosexuals, and we'll all be talking about how we need to be inclusive of them. After all, who are we to judge?

[FzyBunnySliprs]

Awwwww Indy. I'm sorry if I offended you. But you know very well that I am far from liberal. Although I do love liberals, they taste like chicken!

 

[[FF5]Knix]

Many good points.

 

Goo- While I understand the premise of your definition for the phrase "We are just like everyone else", I feel that it is glossing over their major behavioral difference, and how it effects society around them. Sex is the foundation of who we are as human beings. It's not like someone is saying "We're left handed and proud!". How many times a day does everyone think of sex? Exactly...

 

JJ- I agree that Cancer, Heart Disease, ALS, CF, etc are higher on the food chain in requiring resolution then the cause of homosexuality. I also agree that one's sexuality is not set to eithter Straight or Gay, but rather more so like a position on a scale. I do feel however that there is a fear in the homosexual community to delve into the biological/emotional causation to their sexual preference. The fear being that if it is found and accepted within the scientific community that their sexuality was caused by a combination of parental recessive genes (the cause of many diseases I meantion above), then potential parents will test for the condition, thus eliminating or greatly diminishing homosexuality in the world. Or if it is found to be based ones diet during pregnancy, the amount of children one has, stress during pregnancy, that again people act accordingly to diminish the chances of homosexuality lessening in society. I feel that these same people who have these fears fail to see the opportunity to put an end to the question, and very possibly have medical evidence to the randomness of the cause, much like I mentioned why a person is born left-handed or right-handed. A finding like this would give even a greater voice to their cause for equal rights.

 

SFI- I agree that many people in these forums agree with your views, yet are intimidated to voice their views lest the be labeled as a bigot. No one likes to be called a bigot. This too is limiting to both sides of the issue, as not being able to voice ones views, and read those of others without being flamed limits discusssion, possible changing of minds, or firming of ones position. Not too sure where you were going with the goat-herder thing, but I chalk it up to creative license .

 

 

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

Indy: times change and society's values with them. There was a time when it was ok to call black people animals, to publicly humiliate them. There was a time when it was ok to say that women should obey their husband, know their place (in the kitchen) and not get any uppity ideas about work or voting. Right now the people most accepting of gay rights are young people and as time goes by this will become the majority opinion. However, many people consider freedom of speech an absolute. And since these forums are hosted in the US, you probably won't even have to fear hate speech laws (which are being eroded in Europe as well, through that's a whole different subject).

As for the reaction of other people to your opinions, that's what they call personal responsibility. They have as much freedom of speech as you do. Though this is in part your responsibility. If you lower the tone of the discussion with talk of goatrapers and such, there will be people who take the low road with you (though hopefully also a few pointing out that little detail of consent and such).

 

Knix: what particular 'major behavioral difference' would that be? And how does it effect the society around them? Plus, how would gay rights change that? That particular cause and effect relation seems to be missing from most of the anti-gay rights arguments I've seen.

[METAL]

Imo I don't care if s/o is gay or not. What I care about are those individuals wo think they are victims by the society and treat themselfs as such and expecting some benefit in return, also I don't like the gay mafia as I don't like no other mafia. As for kids... I don't know about that. It's depending on the individuals.

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

There's a gay mafia? 'I'll make you an offer you can't refuse... these fabulous shoes are now half price!'

[Kitty!]

Well, im not dumb, or uneducated, im just not big with fancy words and intelectual speaking. But my opinion is as follows... I dont think you can be born with it. I mean im sry but if im wrong, sry. but i do believe being gay happens after ur born. if they should fight in the military? Well why not? But im afraid they can be discriminated and bullied. Should they be allowed to marry? Im sry, so sry, and i like gay ppl, theyre nice, and fun, and im not judging them, but no. Marriage shouldnt be allowed. Allowed to adopt? This would take the children out of foster homes and such, but is it healthy for a child to grow up wondering, why i have 2 mommys or 2 daddys while my friend has a daddy and a mommy? How damaging will it be for them when theyre made fun of cause of this. Schools can be such a cruel place for kids. If they decide to get an egg to have a child, i dunno, i really dont. Now this is my opinion, it may not be brilliant, but at least i tried.

[RXS]

Indy: times change and society's values with them. There was a time when it was ok to call black people animals, to publicly humiliate them. There was a time when it was ok to say that women should obey their husband, know their place (in the kitchen) and not get any uppity ideas about work or voting. Right now the people most accepting of gay rights are young people and as time goes by this will become the majority opinion. However, many people consider freedom of speech an absolute. And since these forums are hosted in the US, you probably won't even have to fear hate speech laws (which are being eroded in Europe as well, through that's a whole different subject).

As for the reaction of other people to your opinions, that's what they call personal responsibility. They have as much freedom of speech as you do. Though this is in part your responsibility. If you lower the tone of the discussion with talk of goatrapers and such, there will be people who take the low road with you (though hopefully also a few pointing out that little detail of consent and such).

 

I don't necessarily buy the times are a changin' argument you presented as justification for gay being OK. Not all change is good.

 

 

The problem I see is that morales and values, almost always, spiral downward to the lowest common denominator in the name of progress. Where does it stop? In the not too distant future, could our values degrade to such a point where we are discussing acceptance of something as vile as pedophilia? IMO, society is quickly moving to a point where everything is accepeted (and if you take issue with it we have a special, denegrating label for you), there is no right or wrong and if it feels good to you then it's ok. Some might argue that acceptance of all things is raising the bar, when in reallity I often see it as lowering the bar.

 

I can tell you that from the numerous debates the NOLF community has had on this exact same subject, my position has softened in some areas and that I have gained a greater understanding of the issues presented by those on the other side of the fence. I have empathy for some of those who struggle with being gay; however, I can tell you with absolute resolution that I loathe those who try to force me to moraly accept their gay lifestyle and call me a bigot if I don't.

Edited July 31, 2007 by RXS

[[TNT] Sonic Goo]

is it healthy for a child to grow up wondering, why i have 2 mommys or 2 daddys while my friend has a daddy and a mommy?

There are many children growing up wondering why they have only one mommy or only one daddy or none at all. Are they healthy?

 

I don't necessarily buy the times are a changin' argument you presented as justification for gay being OK.

It's not a justification for gay being ok. It was a comment on Indy's complaint about political correctness preventing him from posting his opinion.

 

morales and values, almost always, spiral downward to the lowest common denominator in the name of progress.

As this directly follows the previous quote, can I assume this is about rest of my comment? Are you saying that things like women being allowed to vote or black people getting equal right constitute a downward spiral?

 

In the not too distant future, could our values degrade to such a point where we are discussing acceptance of something as vile as pedophilia

This is the same sort of slippery slope argument as Indy's goatrapers and falls down for the same reason; consent.

 

I have empathy for some of those who struggle with being gay

Me too. I wish society would stop disapproving, shunning them, forcing them to deny what they are.

 

I can tell you with absolute resolution that I loathe those who try to force me to moraly accept their gay lifestyle

Please explain what's so morally objectionable about it. Edited July 31, 2007 by [TNT] Sonic Goo

[Caip]

Again, I will remain silent on the topic of homosexuality. I will, however, comment on the notion of "political correctness." Since I want to be politically correct, and therefore not offend anyone, I've chosen to opt out of this discussion. You'll notice, however, that political correctness, and the desire to not offend only apply to those who would espouse traditional opinions. It doesn't matter if your stated beliefs offend those with conservative viewpoints; only those with liberal viewpoints are allowed to be offended. That's why you see such a large number of liberal posts compared to conservative posts. Conservatives are afraid to post and be called biggots. Liberals may post freely in the comfortable knowledge that they're not going to hurt anyone's feelings (since those of us with hurt feelings will remain silent), and conservatives will simply sit on their hands. That's the new world! Free speech only for liberals! All others will instantly be labeled discriminators! Pretty soon, goatrapers will be the new homosexuals, and we'll all be talking about how we need to be inclusive of them. After all, who are we to judge?

 

 

I really don't see the point in saying that you don't want to be part of this discussion since you don't want to offend anyone and then still being a part of it. You posted twice in this topic, both times implying that you think homosexuals are sick degenerates who should be shot at sight (please note that my paraphrasing is not to be taken too seriously) - so are you in or out? If you want to utter your opinion just do it...if you don't want to..then don't take part in the discussion at all.

Concerning political correctness: I think political correctness is way overrated and it's usually just a way of putting lipstick on the pig. I kinda do believe in the rather romantic thought of a rationality (Vernunft), hence knowing where the line is between being honest and insulting (although the difference between honesty and insult is very subjective). You mentioned the difference between liberals and conservatives and how conservatives cannot say what they think without getting flak. Well, tough 'frack'. If you have a strong opinion you have to expect people attacking you and it is by all means not the case that conservatives just shut up and sing when it comes to the gay issue for example. Considering myself a liberal (a European liberal, not what you Americans call liberal) I do believe in a unrestricted freedom of speech which includes calling a spade a spade. In short: if you want to speak your mind, do so. If you don't want to, by all means don't. Everyone is entitled to having an opinion, the only question is whether to enter a public discussion with it or not.

 

Gosh, how boring it would be if everyone had the same opinion and we had nothing to fight about Let diversity flourish!

[SadIstic]

Gosh, how boring it would be if everyone had the same opinion and we had nothing to fight about Let diversity flourish!

 

 

Caip i just wanna say i love that quote u picked thats a great one, im a fan of nietchze myself

[METAL]

There's a gay mafia? 'I'll make you an offer you can't refuse... these fabulous shoes are now half price!'

ohh sure and there's no mason's or templars these day.

There are many children growing up wondering why they have only one mommy or only one daddy or none at all. Are they healthy?

Deppends... it's like choosing from one evel to another.

As this directly follows the previous quote, can I assume this is about rest of my comment? Are you saying that things like women being allowed to vote or black people getting equal right constitute a downward spiral?

This is the same sort of slippery slope argument as Indy's goatrapers and falls down for the same reason; consent.

he never said anything like that. imo.

Edited August 1, 2007 by METAL

[Kitty!]

Well it so happens that i grew up without my father and i turned out perfectly fine, me and my dad have a close relationship regardless divorce. But im sure having gay parents is worst than having just one parent. Not discriminating, but its true. I personally wouldnt be ok with the fact of my dad or mom being gay. Its not that were making them hide who they are, they can be gay if they want. In my opinion, gay people are gay because either they had an experience as a child, like kissed while playing doctor(by another child of same sex), or they were abused, touched, etc etc. If that wasnt the case, then heck i dunno. Theres no way u can be born gay, its ridiculous. If its genetic, why try to find a cure for it? Its who u are? why change it then?

Edited August 1, 2007 by Kitty!

[Caip]

In my opinion, gay people are gay because either they had an experience as a child, like kissed while playing doctor(by another child of same sex)

 

 

I am sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous theories I have EVER heard...

[RXS]

 

I am sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous theories I have EVER heard...

Lay off her Caip.....

[Caip]

Lay off her Caip.....

 

I most certainly will not lay off her just because she is a woman and/or agrees with your point of view. Her statement was ridiculous and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't speak my mind. I, however, did never say that she isn't entitled to her opinion.

 

Anyway, let's get back on topic instead of being shocked and awed all the time.

[[FF5]Knix]

I most certainly will not lay off her just because she is a woman and/or agrees with your point of view. Her statement was ridiculous and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't speak my mind. I, however, did never say that she isn't entitled to her opinion.

 

Anyway, let's get back on topic instead of being shocked and awed all the time.

 

If we are going to stay on topic, I'm sure we could have done without the "shocked and awed" reference. It is an inappropriate as if RXS would have wrote above " Caip please don't blitzkrieg her, remember this is not Kristallnacht."